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Thread: Winchester 350 Legend

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    Check out Mike Bellm's website - https://www.bellmtcs.com - for quite a bit of information about this new cartridge and his comparisons with the 357 max. In one of his recent newsletters of a week or two ago, I believe he noted that this round actually shoots stand 357 diameter bullets, not 9mm types.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master
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    I am a bit confused, we are cast bullet shooters here, why be concerned about .002 bore size. Size it to what the rifle likes, if you like the idea of the caliber. Personally I don't have a need for it, 35 Rem serves fine for me, but I can see a nitch. True that the factory chamber length is aggravating but starlings 223 basic should protect for brass availability. It could be interesting in a single shot, retroated to take an RCBS 200 and with a rim. OOPS, pretty much a 357 max, a proven round. Winchester's round is designed for the marketing, less recipient than a 243, good. More muzzle energy ghan a 3030, well, who cares, I hunt close but not muzzle close! Why not compare apples to apples??? A rimless 357max really is a fine round, leave it to Winchester to screw it up!
    “You don’t practice until you get it right. You practice until you can’t get it wrong.” Jason Elam, All-Pro kicker, Denver Broncos

  3. #23
    Boolit Master
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    If someone comes out with this cart. in a lwt. mini-bolt action, 1:16 twist and throated to accommodate a RCBS 200gr. bullet I'll be all over it..
    Lots of naysayers on this thread spouting false information..
    Sad...
    Last edited by Nrut; 02-17-2019 at 04:42 PM.





  4. #24
    Boolit Master
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    Check this out http://www.winchesterguns.com/produc...s/sporter.html

    350 Legend bolt gun

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    You can always run a throating reamer in to correct their oversight
    Actually might tempt me into one of those cheap light Ruger bolt guns(American?), plastic and all! A finish reamer to "fix" Winchester's oversight would be reasonable if several folk shared, like the 357max community reamer share.
    “You don’t practice until you get it right. You practice until you can’t get it wrong.” Jason Elam, All-Pro kicker, Denver Broncos

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    I bought a piloted throat reamer for my 9mm Glock KKM barrel. It has a tight March chamber. Cut just enough to have no problem with coated bullets. Cost 75.00

  7. #27
    Boolit Bub
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    I am looking at the chamber spec
    in the below link

    Can anybody comment, how headspacing would work.
    There is no rim, is it going to headspace on the case mounth?
    And if yes, doesn' it mean that the cartridge will still require trimming like all the bottle necked cartridges?

    Also, is there any info on why .223 case cannot be used for this (after making it into a straight wall)?



    Quote Originally Posted by Rick R View Post
    And to answer my own question, nope it’s a proprietary cartridge.

    https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...troduction.pdf

    After watching a co-worker struggle to feed a .243 WSSM I think I’ll pass.

  8. #28
    In Remembrance bikerbeans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by worker View Post
    I am looking at the chamber spec
    in the below link

    Can anybody comment, how headspacing would work.
    There is no rim, is it going to headspace on the case mounth?
    And if yes, doesn' it mean that the cartridge will still require trimming like all the bottle necked cartridges?

    Also, is there any info on why .223 case cannot be used for this (after making it into a straight wall)?
    The casehead for a 350l is approx 0.012" larger than a 223 casehead. If you convert the 223 brass to 350l the brass will bulge a little at the casehead/sidewall transition.

    Cartridge headspaces off the case mouth so trim length will need to be right.

    BB

  9. #29
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    Here are some FACTS on the cartridge from recognized sources. Don't really see much not to like for those in straight wall states.

    https://www.americanhunter.org/artic...er-350-legend/

    and

    https://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2019...ew-350-legend/

    and

    https://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2019...te-350-legend/

  10. #30
    Boolit Bub
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    Hmm.. .so this is not a .223 straigh-walled
    more like a 9mm extended.

    Would starline's .223 untappered work ?
    https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/223-Basic/

    Also, I am thinking... could a used up .35L shortened case (eg after a neck split, for example), be still salvaged into .22 TCM blank case ?

    Another thing, I am linking about .35L -- is that I think this can become
    a wheel gun, a wheel rifle base cartridge, in addition to already existing bolt and AR platforms...

    Lots of things to think about!

    One of the reasons I am looking at this, is that I have 0 investment into .300 blackout, and now, given that we decided we need something slow/but heavy with AR15 mags+bolt compatibility... -- why not .350L.



    Quote Originally Posted by bikerbeans View Post
    The casehead for a 350l is approx 0.012" larger than a 223 casehead. If you convert the 223 brass to 350l the brass will bulge a little at the casehead/sidewall transition.

    Cartridge headspaces off the case mouth so trim length will need to be right.

    BB

  11. #31
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    Guess I'd just buy the stuff w/the correct headstamp. Some idiot would figure out some way to cram in it a 223/6.8/300BO gun.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hickory View Post
    Well, with a .355" diameter bullet it does not qualify for a legal hunting round in Ohio, it's 0.002" too small. And when I first learned of this new round I got excited enough to seriously consider buying an AR. Oh, well. Maybe next time.
    It's not .355.

  13. #33
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    What states require the straight walled cartridge thing for deer? Seems like that is the only thing this cartridge really has going for it over several long established cartridges that do the same thing as well or better. Even in one of those states, seems like this combo would have a long way to go to equal the .450 Bushmaster bolt guns out there now.

    Someone mentioned the .351 WSL, seems like this is a reincarnation of it, and in my experience using it, the .351 is a good woods deer gun, but there are many things out there I'd pick over it.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by worker View Post
    Would starline's .223 untappered work ?
    Without any doubt, the 223 basic will work. Depending on you bullets and your actual chamber dimensions, neck turning / reaming may be required.

    Trimming will be needed. And a word for the wise, the initial trim should be to remove just barely enough to chamber. When the round "fire forms" to the chamber, the OD will increase, especially down toward the base. As it expands, it will result in the brass getting shorter.

    I have a 357AR (357 Max rimless) that is very similar. I put a lot of work into converting 223, only to end up scrapping a big percentage as many of the cases ended up too short after fire forming. I actually need to convert another big batch (with more care to avoid the "too short" problem), but have been putting it off.

    Now for Winchester. The round may indeed be designed for 0.355" bullets, but the ammo ads claim it is 0.357". We will not be sure of all of the details for a while. The factory clowns may have missed the Ohio 0.357" minimum diameter requirement early on, designed the round for 0.355", then noticed the 0.357" requirement. They may now be in a smoke screen effort (claiming 0.357" when the ammo is 0.355") to try to get the guns to sell in all of the target states.

    Since Winchester is claiming 0.357" for the ammo, I doubt anyone would have a problem. However, if you worried about the 0.355" being too small, just load your own with 0.357" or 0.358". These diameters would be good choices for PC on cast .
    Last edited by P Flados; 03-03-2019 at 09:30 PM.

  15. #35
    In Remembrance bikerbeans's Avatar
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    The SAAMI spec for the 350L indicates it is a rebated rim cartridge. Kinda of a scaled down 450 BM.

    Per SAAMI, groove is 0.355" and bore 0.346"

    BB

    BB

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by SvenLindquist View Post
    Guess I'd just buy the stuff w/the correct headstamp. Some idiot would figure out some way to cram in it a 223/6.8/300BO gun.
    The starline 223 basic is not stamped with any designation. No worry about idiots thinking you ammo will fit a 223 / 5.56 gun.

  17. #37
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by worker View Post
    Can anybody comment, how headspacing would work.
    There is no rim, is it going to headspace on the case mounth?
    And if yes, doesn' it mean that the cartridge will still require trimming like all the bottle necked cartridges?

    Also, is there any info on why .223 case cannot be used for this (after making it into a straight wall)?
    Converted 223 can work, but because it does headspace on the mouth, the case length is important. When I did some test conversions, I found that a medium percentage of 223 should be Ok for a minimum spec chamber length 350L after fire forming, and only a small percentage of converted cases will be ok after fire forming if your chamber length is close to max allowed by the spec.

    Good news (in a way) is that I think that a properly set up loading arrangement will work fine. I made a custom steel taper sizing die, and am getting minimal case "stretching" in my 357AR. I expect the 350L to function virtually the same as the 357AR Therefore, if you get set up right (not working the brass too much), brass should last a long time with minimal needs for case trimming.

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by rking22 View Post
    I am a bit confused, we are cast bullet shooters here, why be concerned about .002 bore size. Size it to what the rifle likes, if you like the idea of the caliber. Personally I don't have a need for it, 35 Rem serves fine for me, but I can see a nitch. True that the factory chamber length is aggravating but starlings 223 basic should protect for brass availability. It could be interesting in a single shot, retroated to take an RCBS 200 and with a rim. OOPS, pretty much a 357 max, a proven round. Winchester's round is designed for the marketing, less recipient than a 243, good. More muzzle energy ghan a 3030, well, who cares, I hunt close but not muzzle close! Why not compare apples to apples??? A rimless 357max really is a fine round, leave it to Winchester to screw it up!
    If your platform works with a rim, the max is the way to go for anyone that loads their own ammo.

    If your platform of choice does not work with a rim, the 350L, the 357AR (357 Max Rimless) or possibly even a 350L with "special" use of tolerances (max bore @ 0.357", max throat @ 0.359" min chamber length @ 1.71") can all be reasonable choices depending on preferences.

    A 357AR, a std 350L and a "special" 350L will all give you performance very close to what the 357 Max has been delivering for decades. And I have yet to see any comment along the lines of "I gave up on my 357 Max as it just did not have enough terminal performance to get the job done".
    Last edited by P Flados; 03-03-2019 at 10:11 PM.

  19. #39
    Boolit Buddy

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    350 Legend Ballistics

    I pulled this information from the Winchester Ammunition website and put it in a Word document for myself because it was in as many places as their are bullets and difficult to compare. I thought some others would like to see it all together. They did not have BC's available or not where I was looking. The SAAMI New Cartridge and Chamber drawing shows 145 grain FMJ at 2250fps based on a 16" test barrel. I see the Winchester XPR is a 22" barrel and possibly used for the figures below.

    350 Legend
    Case Length 1.71”
    Bullet Diameter .357”

    DISTANCE(YARDS) VELOCITY(fps) ENERGY(FT-LBS) TRAJ SHORT RANGE (IN)

    USA FMJ 145 grain
    muzzle 2350 1778
    50 -1.5
    100 1916 1182 0
    200 1539 763 -8.1
    300 1241 496 -31.2

    Deer Season XP 150 grain
    muzzle 2325 1800
    50 -1.5
    100 1968 1289 0
    200 1647 903 -7.6
    300 1373 628 -28.1

    Power Max Bonded 160 grain
    muzzle 2225 1759
    50 -1.5
    100 1843 1206 0
    200 1509 809 -8.9
    300 1243 548 -33.2

    Super X Power Point 180 grain
    muzzle 2100 1762
    50 -1.5
    100 1762 1240 0
    200 1466 859 -9.8
    300 1230 604 -36

    Super Suppressed 265 grain
    muzzle 1060 661
    50 -1.5
    100 990 577 0
    200 936 515 -34.1
    300 890 466 -107.4
    Last edited by 45&30-30; 03-03-2019 at 09:37 PM. Reason: Trying to fix format. Looks different in edit screen from what is seen in the post. it won't stay in the columns.
    I Like Guns - Steve Lee

  20. #40
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by richhodg66 View Post
    What states require the straight walled cartridge thing for deer? Seems like that is the only thing this cartridge really has going for it over several long established cartridges that do the same thing as well or better. Even in one of those states, seems like this combo would have a long way to go to equal the .450 Bushmaster bolt guns out there now.

    Someone mentioned the .351 WSL, seems like this is a reincarnation of it, and in my experience using it, the .351 is a good woods deer gun, but there are many things out there I'd pick over it.
    The 450 bushmaster is popular in the "straight wall" states as it is legal, has a decent range, and gets the job done.

    I may be mistaken, but I am willing to bet that in reality it is a "less than optimum" choice for most hunting chores in states where bottle necks are allowed.

    The 350L should meet the needs of "straight wall" hunters just as well as the 450. It will do it with a lot less recoil. In the straight wall states, having a choice of either 45 cal or 35 cal is a good thing. If you understand the real pros and cons between the two rounds and still want "bigger", then go with the 450. If you want to go the other direction, the 350L (or 357AR) may make you happier.

    If you are not in the straight wall states, most buyers will have to "just want" a 35 or a 45 to pick either. Some people just like one vs. the other. Now they have a choice.

    For cast boolit hunters, either 35 or 45 are probably pretty darn good choices when compared to anything smaller.

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