1885 Winchester 4570govt hi wall

[badwolf]

I have a new high wall hunter and im looking for advice on loads. Not sure on twist rate or what bullets to use. Plan on plinking and deer hunting with it. Not really looking for heavy recoil loads.

[NSB]

I too have one of these fine firearms, and it's been a real pleasure to shoot. I don't load anything with stout recoil, although even the mild loads can get your attention after a while. I've kept records on all loads I've tried in the gun since the day I got it about five years ago. I've scoped the gun and shot if off the bench for testing all loads. If you're going to shoot cast bullets out of it you might consider slugging the barrel before selecting bullets. I will add that I've owned three Miroku made Winchester 45-70's and they've been unbelievably consistent in bore diameter after slugging: .4565-.4570". I shot .459" bullets when using cast. I have never found any bullet, cast or jacketed, that shot better when the bullet weight was 350g or below. I always got my best results when shooting 400g and up. This gun will shoot five shots 1moa or less at 100 yards with selected loads. I've also found the 45-70 to be the least fussy cartridge I've ever loaded for. It simply likes a lot of different powders. I try to keep the velocity around 1400-1500fps with most of my loads, and every deer I've shot with this cartridge has been a complete pass-through regardless of angle or distance. My favorite powders have been 4198, Rel7, and 2400 to achieve these results. If you don't cast yourself and want something to try in lead I'd suggest giving OregonTrail bullets a try with their 405g bullet. They come in either .458 or .459" dia. Use the .459" to try. They shoot really well, but to date I've found that the Rem 405g JSP has been the most accurate bullet I've tried and use it for my hunting needs. It shoots ragged holes at a hundred yards with monotonous regularity. Good luck with your new gun.

[Gunlaker]

Those rifles are 1:20 twist. I'd use a 405gr bullet. For plinking you have lots of options, just look at the Hodgdon's trapdoor data. H-4198 works best for me, but I substitute a magnum primer for better ignition in the cold. For hunting pick anything in the levergun load data. Watch out for the short throat though, not all bullets will chamber at the OAL specified in the loading manuals.

Chris.

[NSB]

Those rifles are 1:20 twist. I'd use a 405gr bullet. For plinking you have lots of options, just look at the Hodgdon's trapdoor data. H-4198 works best for me, but I substitute a magnum primer for better ignition in the cold. For hunting pick anything in the levergun load data. Watch out for the short throat though, not all bullets will chamber at the OAL specified in the loading manuals.

Chris.

Good comment on the short throat. These guns are built to true SAAMI specs and the throat is basically non-existant. I took all three of mine and had the throat lengthened. When I first tried to use the 405g Rem JSP, I couldn't fit them in the chamber. The bullet ogive hit the rifling even at the second crimp groove. I had the throat lengthened to what Turnbull was doing with their guns and it came out to about .250".....yes, about a quarter inch. Now they feed everything. As far as accuracy being effected, it wasn't one bit. My High Wall will shoot five into 1moa pretty regularly off the bench. Getting your throat lengthened on that gun doesn't cost very much, it's a pretty simple job.

[badwolf]

I cast, i have 2 trapdoors and a Peabody . I use the 405 lee hollow base and keep the loads trapdoor level.

[badwolf]

I have a Lyman 457193 i haven't tried, it's a 405 flat point, i guess the 500 Lyman is out with the short throat

[pietro]

.

I had a .45-70 Browning Traditional Hunter, when they were first introduced.

Your Hi-Wall, Browning by way of Miroku, is a very strong action, made with the best steel available today - it can be loaded as high or low (powered) as you & your shoulder can take (although it's heavy enough that recoil is mitigated, compared to other .45-70's).

IMO, you have a good opportunity to shoot the snot out of it, in your process to determine what boolitt/powder load works best for you.


.

[Chill Wills]

I have a Lyman 457193 i haven't tried, it's a 405 flat point, i guess the 500 Lyman is out with the short throat

No. Not really. You can use it. Being a singleshot, you can load it to any over all length you find will work. Try in a empty case, seating the bullet out too long, and trying it in the chamber. You know the rest. Just keep seating it in a little at a time until you can chamber it. Work up load from there.

[EDG]

If and only if you can insure you never double charge a case use 13 grs of Unique and 300 to 400 grn bullets for plinkers. Check all your charged cases with a flash light to avoid double charges.

For a medium load try 2400 and 4227 to give about 1100 to 1200 fps with 350 to 400 grain bullets.

For a heavy bullet like a 500 grainer use about 23 to 25 grains of 4227 for about 1100 to 1300 fps.
This bullet produces recoil about like a 20 ga shotgun.

These loads are all mild pressures but they are not for trapdoors or other old timer designed for black powder.

The Traditional Hunter is the only Browning 1885 I don't have. I have the no tang standard model with a Williams recevier sight and Lyman globe front sight. I also have the 1885 BPCR with the tang sight. Both are really fun shooters.

I have a new high wall hunter and im looking for advice on loads. Not sure on twist rate or what bullets to use. Plan on plinking and deer hunting with it. Not really looking for heavy recoil loads.

[rfd]

350 to 400 grain 1:30 or 1:20 cast and lubed bullets that are sized to groove diameter, AA5744 powder (which was made for these kinda olde timey cartridges). a typically very accurate load and one i used a decade ago to win 200yd matches before i saw the light and dropped that white devil dust for the far superior real black powder and paper patched bullets.

[badwolf]

What did it cost to have the throat lengthend? Is that something you can do yourself?

[Gunlaker]

Some of the heavy bullets will still chamber because the nose is at bore diameter. Mine would chamber 535gr Postell and 450gr Magma bullets for instance.

Chris.

[NSB]

What did it cost to have the throat lengthend? Is that something you can do yourself?

If you're a reasonably competent home gunsmith you probably could do it. You'd have to rent a reamer but there are places around on the web that rent them. If you're not absolutely sure it's something you can do, and you don't want to go through the hassle of renting and returning a reamer, you can probably get it done for about a hundred bucks. That's what I paid and I'm more than satisfied with the results of what I got. At this point my gun will shoot any bullet I want to use and like I said, it didn't effect accuracy one bit. In fact, it allows me to tailor any bullet length to the length I want to finished round to be in relation to the lands. I definitely consider it a very worth while investment in this gun.

[SvenLindquist]

Suggest the 330 gr Gould hollow point. It's a great killer in he 45-70.

See this:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...l_Gould_bullet.

[NSB]

All bullets are great killers in the 45-70. I've never heard of one that wasn't. It starts out big and goes from there. I have yet to recover even one bullet from any deer I shot with that cartridge regardless of range or angle. Probably will someday, but so far all pass-throughs.

[marlinman93]

Opening up the throat (if you're not 100% how to do it) can end up with a ruined barrel. I'd never suggest anyone without previous experience should attempt renting a reamer and doing so. Best to pay someone qualified to ensure it's done perfectly, than attempt it yourself.

[Chill Wills]

I sure would not mess with the chamber throat until you try it.
Load for it.
Play with it.
Load just like the chamber requires by seating the bullet at an overall length that will chamber and see how it goes.

Bullet selection sure can make a difference, that is true. Most traditional designs can be loaded to an overall length to produce fine accuracy and as far as hunting goes, yes, the 45-70 is outstanding in that it can be made to work well with a huge spectrum of powder and bullets. Versatile - in a word.

You made a good choice of rifle and chambering. Enjoy!

[EDG]

There is zero reason to lengthen the throat in any smokeless single shot 45-70 load.
Regardless of how deep you have to seat the bullets you still have enough case capacity for shoulder abusing loads. Even the 540 grn Postell and Creedmoor bullets have a long bore riding nose that does not need a long throat.
So you may think the bullet has to extend far enough to crimp in the crimp groove of a j word bullet but it is not true. They do not need to be crimped in a single shot. It can serve a purpose in a tube magazine repeater but a crimp and long seated bullets gets you nothing in smokeless 45-70 single shot load.

[country gent]

Put an add in Swapping and selling for some test bullets to try and see what the rifle likes and shoots best. 20 bullets can give a very good idea. This will give you test data to choose by and when thru you have the lube and mould number maker to order from.
A lot cast their 45-70 bullets to hard for best performance in this lower pressure cartridge. When you cast use something in the 15-1 to 30-1 range. ( I run 20-1 alloy and get great accuracy from 100-500 yds.). On hunting bullets this softer alloy also promotes better expansion.
If the rifle is 1-20 twist then a bullet in the 385 - 500 grn should be useable. the 500 grn Lyman round nose should shine here. the 535 postell with the longer nose may be to long to stabilize fully. SPG lube or Homemade Emmerts improved are both good lubes here.

[NSB]

There is zero reason to lengthen the throat in any smokeless single shot 45-70 load.
Regardless of how deep you have to seat the bullets you still have enough case capacity for shoulder abusing loads. Even the 540 grn Postell and Creedmoor bullets have a long bore riding nose that does not need a long throat.
So you may think the bullet has to extend far enough to crimp in the crimp groove of a j word bullet but it is not true. They do not need to be crimped in a single shot. It can serve a purpose in a tube magazine repeater but a crimp and long seated bullets gets you nothing in smokeless 45-70 single shot load.

I'd have to argue that one. My Win/Miroku 1886 wouldn't chamber and feed any rounds with Hornady bullets seated to a crimping groove, and those guns require a crimp. Turnbull, who seems to have an idea of what they're doing lengthens the throat on the ones they sell. Shoving the bullet down into the case just isn't the answer. Unless you own one of these guns, you haven't had to deal with them. Let the OP try some different bullets and report his results. I've been down that road several times with Win/Miroku guns. Great guns, no throat to speak of. Some bullets work, some don't. Just too many that don't so why restrict yourself?