1885 Winchester 4570govt hi wall

[pietro]

There is zero reason to lengthen the throat in any smokeless single shot 45-70 load.

I'd have to argue that one. My Win/Miroku 1886 wouldn't chamber and feed any rounds with Hornady bullets seated to a crimping groove.

A Model 1886 is a repeater, which have limitations on cartridge length to feed properly from the magazine - and not a single shot rifle, as referenced in this thread.

.

[Chill Wills]

This is a singleshot topic I know - so I am going off topic - sorry....

So NSB, you have me wondering and I will check about the fit of jacket bullets in my 1886 Winchesters when I get back to the shop next week. I have a Miroku Winchester 1886 as well as a few real '86 Winchesters.
Because I am both cheap and because they work SO well, I have not shot a jacketed bullet in the 45-70 since the 1970's.
I have some Hornady 350gr Jacketed RN somewhere that are that old. Those tough old bullets would not even expand on a Colorado mule deer but performed a knock out on Elk! I did not ever recover one bullet.
I was shooting them out of a 200th year of American Liberty Ruger #3 then, so no problem with a crimp. In fact in that rifle it was hard to seat a bullet out far enough. Long Throat!

Now, just to see what is what, 'cus you got my interest up I will try a loaded and crimped round in the 1886's.

Just as an additional note, for me, using jacketed bullets in the 45-70 are a big waste. The lead (alloy) bullet is so good and can be tailored to just your hunting needs, the pricey store bullets have no place for me.

[Gunlaker]

Chills I have a Miroku built Browning 1886 and it can't chamber the majority of jacketed bullets at the loading manuals recommended OAL. I've tried the Speer 400, Hornady 350 RN, Hornady 350 FN, and the Remington 405.

The only one it'll chamber at the recommended OAL is the Speer 350 RN ( not the FN! ).

Fortunately all of the cast bullet designs I've tried work fine, including a 450gr bullet I sometimes use.

It is a little odd that they made a rifle that would not chamber any of the ammunition that I could buy locally!

Chris.

[Chill Wills]

Chills I have a Miroku built Browning 1886 and it can't chamber the majority of jacketed bullets at the loading manuals recommended OAL.
It is a little odd that they made a rifle that would not chamber any of the ammunition that I could buy locally!
Chris.

Yes. I am with you on that.
I would frame the question this way. Given much the arms industry uses SAAMI as the standard chamber and no small number of rifles would be chambered for them, why would bullet makers like Speer, Hornady and others design and produce a product that will not fit and function in the SAAMI standard chamber? I wonder who their market is for this?

On the other hand, Lyman and other mold makers seem to know where to put the crimp groove and what diameter bullets need to be ahead of the crimp groove. Yes, there are some specialty mold/bullets that don't conform. I have standard chambers in both Browning BPCR's singleshots and they have no trouble with any of the cast offerings.

Unlike you and the Miroku Browning, I have a Miroku built Winchester lever 45-70. (for whatever that is worth) I am interested to see if that chamber will except anything jacketed.

[NSB]

I too have a Win/Miroku 1886 lever and it would not chamber most jacketed bullets 350g and up. It has the same chamber as the Miroku made High Wall I have. No throat at all. Many manufacturers have added a throat beyond SAAMI specs and will feed these bullets. For whatever reason, Win chose to have Miroku build with no throat. This is pretty common knowledge for those who own and shoot these guns. It's not a fluke getting one that way. Turnbull and others are well aware of it and ream their chambers to accept the jacketed bullets.

[Gunlaker]

I suspect that 98% of all jacketed bullets designed for the .45-70 are sold to shooters of the 1895 Marlins. Mine will easily chamber anything I've ever tried in it, and I think the Marlins represent the biggest piece of the .45-70 market these days. It is weird that the bullet manufacturers would make these fat nosed bullets though.

For shooting cast bullets in a single shot though, I'm more than happy with the short throat rifles. I had a Browning BPCR in .45-70 with the same throat and it was quite accurate. I don't think that cast bullets need any freebore to shoot well if you have the right bullet.

Chris.

[Chill Wills]

i too have a win/miroku 1886 lever and it would not chamber most jacketed bullets 350g and up. It has the same chamber as the miroku made high wall i have. No throat at all. Many manufacturers have added a throat beyond saami specs and will feed these bullets. For whatever reason, win chose to have miroku build with no throat. This is pretty common knowledge for those who own and shoot these guns. It's not a fluke getting one that way. Turnbull and others are well aware of it and ream their chambers to accept the jacketed bullets.

:d:d:d:d:d:d

Hmmm, where did my little smiley faces go?

[NSB]

I have no doubt that most of the jacketed bullets get used in something like a Marlin. There are WAY more Marlin lever guns out there than Win/Brown/Miroku guns. The cost alone keeps most from buying a Miroku instead of the Marlin. The Marlin is a fine gun, and about half or less cost to buy than the Miroku guns. It's not a big deal to lengthen the throat in the Miroku guns. It's a pretty straight forward reaming job. You can shoot some heavier bullets in the Miroku guns, but they don't have the blunter ogive of the Hornady 350g or the Rem 405g jacketed bullets. Yes, you can seat them deeper to get them to work in a single shot, but lots of owners simply prefer to lengthen the throat and not have to make ammo to those restrictions.

[Chill Wills]

For shooting cast bullets in a single shot though, I'm more than happy with the short throat rifles. I had a Browning BPCR in .45-70 with the same throat and it was quite accurate. I don't think that cast bullets need any freebore to shoot well if you have the right bullet.

Chris.

Chris, that's right. The standard chamber is very good and I would not mess with it in a SS rifle shooting cast bullets.

You wrote: "I suspect that 98% of all jacketed bullets designed for the .45-70 are sold to shooters of the 1895 Marlins. Mine will easily chamber anything I've ever tried in it, and I think the Marlins represent the biggest piece of the .45-70 market these days. It is weird that the bullet manufacturers would make these fat nosed bullets though."

I would guess you are right and I would take your word for it.

I have never had a Marlin so I did not know that. Never a Marlin but one I should say, a seventies 44 mag that was a mess - returned to Marlin and was worse. I would own any older Marlin pre 1960 but the later stuff sounds like it started going down hill, though I am sure that there were a certain number of good rifles put out.

[Gunlaker]

I've owned a few Marlins over the years. That's what introduced me to the .45-70 which got me started on these single shot rifles .

Still own one but don't have much use for it. It's just a sentimental thing as it used to belong to my dad. Target shooting with single shots is by far my main shooting interest, although I do some offhand practice with leverguns on bad weather days. I'd probably get more into them if we had NRA style lever silhouette matches up here in Canada.

Chris.

[ahall]

Have a 25+ year old browning highwall in 45/70.
First gun I purchased after I turned 18. Dad thought I was crazy.
He may have been right.

Its all I hunt with, and love shooting modest cast loads all day at the range, but for hunting a 300 grain jacked hollow point at 2000+ fps is a nice load on white tails. No where a much meat damage as you might expect and you don't have to track them very far.
The round usually gets caught under the hide on the far side of the chest.

[EDG]

Lengthening the throat of a 45-70 not needed in a single shot since there are more than an adequate number of cast bullets designed to work with the SAAMI chamber.
The real short fall lies in the repeating 45-70s that will not accept the 500 grain long nosed bullets. You really are shooting only an express rifle load and the most accurate 500 grain bullets will not even function in your rifle.
Since this is a cast bullet forum the short comings of jacketed bullets are not of much import.
I find it some what strange that some want to object about the cost of a Miroku single shot in favor of the Marlin and then turn around an shoot expensive jacketed bullets some of which may cost $.50 each or more.

I have several Brownings - some bought used and some bought new. Two of the used rifles were purchased in mint condition for less than what a new Marlin costs. I do not own a Marlin 45-70. I do own several Marlins in .30-30, . 375 and .35 Rem so I like the rifle. I do not think they are the best choice in a 45-70 simply because you do not really get a real 45-70. You get a rifle that at best can only shoot 400 grain bullets.
I built my first 45-70 using a Siamese Mauser action in 1972. With it throated for the 400 grn Speed it was very accurate with jacketed bullets and mediocre with cast bullets. Since then I have owned a dozen different 45-70 factory single shots (Ruger, H&R, Browning, TC Encore) and every last one of them has had the SAAMI chamber. The few jacketed bullets I have shot were just seated deeper until they chambered. There is no reason to pay attention to the crimp groove since the single shot ammo does not need a crimp. I have no real complaints about the jacketed bullets in a single shot other than they are too expensive to shoot up plinking in large numbers like I do with cast bullets. I am sure not going to ream the throat out for the limited number of jacketed bullets I might shoot.

I too have a Win/Miroku 1886 lever and it would not chamber most jacketed bullets 350g and up. It has the same chamber as the Miroku made High Wall I have. No throat at all. Many manufacturers have added a throat beyond SAAMI specs and will feed these bullets. For whatever reason, Win chose to have Miroku build with no throat. This is pretty common knowledge for those who own and shoot these guns. It's not a fluke getting one that way. Turnbull and others are well aware of it and ream their chambers to accept the jacketed bullets.

[NSB]

Lengthening the throat of a 45-70 not needed in a single shot since there are more than an adequate number of cast bullets designed to work with the SAAMI chamber.
The real short fall lies in the repeating 45-70s that will not accept the 500 grain long nosed bullets. You really are shooting only an express rifle load and the most accurate 500 grain bullets will not even function in your rifle.
Since this is a cast bullet forum the short comings of jacketed bullets are not of much import.
I find it some what strange that some want to object about the cost of a Miroku single shot in favor of the Marlin and then turn around an shoot expensive jacketed bullets some of which may cost $.50 each or more.

I have several Brownings - some bought used and some bought new. Two of the used rifles were purchased in mint condition for less than what a new Marlin costs. I do not own a Marlin 45-70. I do own several Marlins in .30-30, . 375 and .35 Rem so I like the rifle. I do not think they are the best choice in a 45-70 simply because you do not really get a real 45-70. You get a rifle that at best can only shoot 400 grain bullets.
I built my first 45-70 using a Siamese Mauser action in 1972. With it throated for the 400 grn Speed it was very accurate with jacketed bullets and mediocre with cast bullets. Since then I have owned a dozen different 45-70 factory single shots (Ruger, H&R, Browning, TC Encore) and every last one of them has had the SAAMI chamber. The few jacketed bullets I have shot were just seated deeper until they chambered. There is no reason to pay attention to the crimp groove since the single shot ammo does not need a crimp. I have no real complaints about the jacketed bullets in a single shot other than they are too expensive to shoot up plinking in large numbers like I do with cast bullets. I am sure not going to ream the throat out for the limited number of jacketed bullets I might shoot.

EDG, seems to be a lot of people on here who use both cast and jacketed. You're free to use whatever you prefer or can afford. It's still not desirable to own a gun that limits what bullets you can use if there is a simple and easy fix to the problem. I sometimes use cast and sometimes use jacketed. I like to have the choice. Do as you please with your guns, but don't state that there's any fault in correcting something so that it works better with a wider range of bullets. If I couldn't afford the hundred bucks to ream the throat, I'd probably settle on what bullets I could shoot out of the gun and forget about trying anything else. However, myself and many other people don't mind investing a few bucks into an expensive gun to get the most out of it. Yes, you don't have to crimp a single shot rifle. I'd imagine most reloaders and owners of single shots already appreciate that fact.

[Gunlaker]

EDG, respectfully I'd have to disagree that you cannot use the most accurate 500+gr bullets in the short throated Browning/Winchester chambers. The Browning and Winchester BPCR rifles are very accurate with a 535gr Money bullet for instance. Unless I am mis-remembering, Chills may have set an NRA record with one of these rifles.

Chris.

[EDG]

You are disagreeing with who? You might re-read my comment above.
I was referring to repeating rifles not accepting the long nose bullets.
Regardless of what anyone else did I regularly shoot a Browning BPCR with the long bullets too.
You cannot load a 540 Creedmoor or Postell bullet in most REPEATING 45-70s..... The over all length of the loaded round will not cycle unless you are using your Marlin as a (gasp) - single shot.

EDG, respectfully I'd have to disagree that you cannot use the most accurate 500+gr bullets in the short throated Browning/Winchester chambers. The Browning and Winchester BPCR rifles are very accurate with a 535gr Money bullet for instance. Unless I am mis-remembering, Chills may have set an NRA record with one of these rifles.

Chris.

[EDG]

Sure you always can have a choice but it is not necessary to use the rifle properly with a single shot.
I can even shoot jacketed bullets without extending the throat. It is very simple. I do not to pay attention to the crimp grooves. The longer you cut the throat the more likely it is you will have accuracy problems with light bullets which will ruin the rifle for some shooters. It is pretty typical to throat a 45-70 to accept the 400 grain Speer loaded at the second cannelure. The extra throat is not too good for lighter bullets.

EDG, seems to be a lot of people on here who use both cast and jacketed. You're free to use whatever you prefer or can afford. It's still not desirable to own a gun that limits what bullets you can use if there is a simple and easy fix to the problem. I sometimes use cast and sometimes use jacketed. I like to have the choice. Do as you please with your guns, but don't state that there's any fault in correcting something so that it works better with a wider range of bullets. If I couldn't afford the hundred bucks to ream the throat, I'd probably settle on what bullets I could shoot out of the gun and forget about trying anything else. However, myself and many other people don't mind investing a few bucks into an expensive gun to get the most out of it. Yes, you don't have to crimp a single shot rifle. I'd imagine most reloaders and owners of single shots already appreciate that fact.

[NSB]

Sure you always can have a choice but it is not necessary to use the rifle properly with a single shot.
I can even shoot jacketed bullets without extending the throat. It is very simple. I do not to pay attention to the crimp grooves. The longer you cut the throat the more likely it is you will have accuracy problems with light bullets which will ruin the rifle for some shooters. It is pretty typical to throat a 45-70 to accept the 400 grain Speer loaded at the second cannelure. The extra throat is not too good for lighter bullets.

You've pretty much said this several times. I doubt anyone's missed it. I think I've made mine. Let's quit.

[Gunlaker]

I'm sorry EDG. I missed the part about repeating rifles.

Chris.