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Thread: Help a newby out

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    Help a newby out

    Good evening ladies and gents

    I'm Gatch, I live in Aussie. I have started shooting IPSC (shadow 2) recently and started reloading (xl650) as soon as my license showed up and I was able to buy powder and primers. Mostly as a cost saving exercise, factory ammo is about 30c a pop and I reload for 20c. Recently I chanced across some videos on youtube by elvisammo and fortunecookie45lc, covering bullet casting and powder coating. After doing a little math I think that with my own cast and pc boolits I can get that cost to under 10c. Which is awesome cause I'm burning about 500 rounds a week at the moment.

    So I have absolutely TRAWLED the castboolit pages looking for relevant info and I think I have most of it nutted out. I have copy/pasted below some notes I have made for myself, regarding what I'll need, cost, methodology etc. Something I noticed is there isn't much written about how much time it takes and how much weight you lose from removing the wheel weight clips. If any of you fine gents could take a look through and tell me if I'm missing something glaringly obvious, I would welcome the feedback. I slugged my barrel already (.356). I also attached a .txt if the following text is useful for you to keep or send to another newb you might know.

    *** Preparing the scrap lead for ingot making ***

    Lead - wheel weights @ $2.20/kg (1kg/15,432gr of prepared lead = approx 104x 147gr or 114x 135gr)
    - straight wheel weight lead should be ok when powdercoating
    - to compare, 100x 147gr rn copper plated "tigershark" bullets = $14.40 (6.5 home cast : 1 commercial made)
    Tin - only if necessary from northern smelters

    melting pot (iron or alu) - second hand store $20
    lead ladle - long handle ladle - second hand store $10
    Spoon for slag - long handle ladle - second hand store $10
    3 ring gas burner - $80
    gas bottle - $60
    saw dust for flux - $5
    molds (angle steel, toes up, ends cut 45°, weld on flat or more angle steel to close ends)
    metal buckets ($15) or make crates from plywood ($90/sheet) for raw scrap, and another for slag/dross
    thermometer up to 500°C ($50)

    1- add lead to pot and bring up to temp (start around 375°C)
    2- scoop off slag and chunks of ****
    3- flux with handful of sawdust
    4- mix a bit and scoop off slag again
    5- repeat 3 and 4
    6- turn heat down and ladel lead to molds (dont go below half pot)
    7- turn up heat and repeat step 1-

    *** Cast the bullets ***

    Melting pot - lee 4-20 $180
    Bullet mold (.356 or similar) 5 or 6 cavity (135-147-158gr conical flat nose or round nose) $150-200
    Bucket with water for fresh cast bullets and another for sprue
    Slag bucket

    1- add lead to pot and bring up to temp (start around 375°C)
    2- scoop off slag and chunks of ****
    3- flux with handful of sawdust
    4- mix a bit and scoop off slag again
    5- repeat 3 and 4
    6- start to pour into mold, discard first few casts into sprue until bullets come out shiny and detailed
    7- repeat step 1

    *** Pooder coat ***

    Plastic tub (recycle #5)
    Black bb - $20
    Convection oven - new $100
    latex or nitrile gloves
    oven tray
    non stick paper

    1- add bullets to tub
    2- add bb's
    3- add a spoon of powder
    4- swish and shake for a few minutes
    5- with a gloved hand place on non stick paper and bake in preheated oven at 200°C
    6- tip into water

    possible molds
    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/10...rain-flat-nose

    *** Size the booolits ***

    Lee breech lock press - new $70
    lee size kit .357 - new $35

    1- put boolit on punch
    2- pull handle

    things to get and methodology.txt

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    Gatch - nice! Welcome to the Forums.

    Well thought out - you have trawled with a wide net. How far from civilization do you live? Some savings may be realized from your process as you scrounge for containers (plastic is OK), wood, ladles and spoons, which can be the ordinary culinary type, free wheel weights and lead sources, candle wax vs. saw dust as flux, etc.

    To your question, when lead (Pb) is molten and you are skimming off the dross, you will also remove the steel clips at that time, which are now floating. The clips are less than 2% of the total weight (an educated guess), though I have not done any math to prove that.

    You won't know the chemistry of the wheel weights (WW) anyway, though some have gone the distance to investigate that and report here, but mostly we are working "in the blind" in regard to stoichiometry of constituents, adding a bit of tin (Sn - say 2%) to our mixes to aid mold fill out.

    When I report my alloy as 49/49/2 - Pb/WW/Sn I am "wishing" for those percentages as approximated in my combination of constituents. Only through lab testing would I know for certain, and this hobby just doesn't need that expense thrown into the mix. YMMV.
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
    toallmy's Avatar
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    You have been doing some research and seem to have a good idea of the process . While you are accumulate the items you can get started with a burner , iron or steal pot , ladle , mold , lead .
    Be safe

  4. #4
    Boolit Master




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    Welcome Gatch, you've done a lot more research than a lot of beginners. I would avoid aluminum for the melting pot.
    God Bless America
    US Army, NRA Patron, TSRA Life
    SASS, Ruger & Marlin accumulator

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    When you are putting a new batch of wheel weights into the smelt pot...

    Use all but the last 1/2 inch in depth of lead from the previous pot. Be certain that the wheel weights are absolutely bone dry when you add new ones to previously molten lead . . . or . . . you'll get a steam explosion. Always wear large face covering shields or large safety glasses around the molten lead.

    This is a very handy mould for the Lee 20 pound pot...they stack well to fill the pot on the first load of ingots.



    After a hot couple of hours at the ingot pot these ingots are a pleasing sight to see...they are ready to stack somewhere for stowage, turn them all the same direction and they take minimum space...



    They average about 2.5 pounds each...



    I like how they stack in the pot and all at once they come up to temperature, melt and fill the pot on the first ingots...



    A hot plate, a skill saw blade and an old tin can will make a good prewarming oven for your casting moulds. This little 1K watt hot plate can pre warm the moulds to 375º ~ 425ºƒ depending on outside temperature but that's plenty good enough to get good quality, filled out cast from the first or second pour. Put your mould in the oven and turn it up to high at the same time you load your pour pot, they will be ready to go at the same time. That temperature gage is from the local hardware and was meant for the BBQ...works just fine...



    You'll need to add weight to the valve assembly on the Lee 'dripomatic' pot...this spring handle off an old wood burner stove is threaded female 1/4" X 20 thd. at the base, all it needs is a set screw added to fix it tight to the valve stem at the top. It's very handy now to make small flow adjustments as the pot empties and the stream slows down. You may need to add a better mould support too, there's a lot of examples out on the YouTube.
    Save yourself a lot of fuss by not using sawdust in the pour pot, use candle wax or paraffin only.



    Save your dross off the pour pot and re-run it in the smelt pot to keep that tin and antimony...I use a little metal mini-bucket on the right.



    Use a casting thermometer in the ingot pot so that you don't melt any Zinc weights that may have snuck into the pot...
    Use the thermometer in your casting pot or use a PID control to control for even heat and your casts will weight very close to the same from cast to cast.



    Get yourself a good casting reference, any of the latest publication numbers will doo...



    Don't make ingots or cast over any floor surface you don't want lead on...it's gonna get there.
    Do your work where the breeze will pull the smoke and toxic vapors away from you...if you cast in the garage use a fan to blow the smoke out the door.
    Don't smoke or eat while melting lead...wash up good after.

    It's all in the cast book...
    Last edited by OS OK; 02-13-2019 at 10:47 AM.
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  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    You can spread cost out over a long period of time, if your going to get all that in short order you might break the bank. Start off with the basics, then add as you go. It’s like buying a complete tool mechanics tool set, some tools you will not ever use. This hobby takes a lot of time, which to most is cheap, if its cheap and you got lots of it that’s ok. You can’t count your time in the equation, if you do you will loose. Better to just buy your boolits. Fun hobby, keep it fun and enjoy, lots of free boolits LOL.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master

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    Do not use aluminium pots for melting lead, it will in time disqualify its self with use.
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    only to God and my own conscience.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master on Heaven’s Range
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    Gatch, welcome to the forum.
    As said do not use a alum. pot.
    Steel or cast iron.
    The first thing you do is spread the word,
    that you will take all lead you can find.
    You never know where the next load
    of lead will come from.
    I do not flux in my bottom pour pot.
    A lot of members use milk crates to
    store the ingots in.
    They put a thin plywood on the bottom.
    I use plastic buckets that I get from cat
    litter.
    Also tell all your friends that you are looking
    for kitchen wear.
    Good luck and keep in touch.
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  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Gatch, you are well on your way. What the guys are trying to explain without the details is that, while the melting temperature of aluminium and lead are very far apart the slump temperature of aluminium and the melting/casting temperature of lead are very close. This means that, if yoy use an aluminium pot for melting lead eventually it will give, usually close to the bottom of the pot. You can imagine the result.
    Wayne the Shrink

    There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Welcome Aboard Mate!

    It looks like you have a good workable plan. I have never timed my casting but a good 4 or 6 cavity mold and a good technique should produce 500 bullets in a couple of hours. Maybe even less.

    Wheel weights have always been my favorite and have served me well for hand gun bullets, whether lubed conventionally or powder coated. If you powder coat, you can even go with a softer alloy. Don't overlook other sources of lead. Isotope lead also works well and you can blend the various kinds of type metal with pure lead to make a uasful alloy.

    The only thing I question in your post are the prices. Are things that much more expensive down there?

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Welcome to CB/GL forum!


    I am not going to add anything to what is already being offered so that you do not get overwhelmed, even though I too would have a few suggestions as well as questions for you to help add to the conversation.

    You have come to the right place to get your answers though! Lots of info s you appear to have laready learned & plenty of helpful folks to offer a helping hand when they can!!

    G'Luck! in your endeavors & take your time, no need to rush things. Take your time & do things right!
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  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy
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    Good morning gents. First of all thanks for the feedback. I'll edit my notes later today.

    A few things to clarify. Supply of lead right now is no problem. I drive past a metal scrap dealer on the way to work. They currently have about a ton of wheel weights @ $2.20/kg. And a few more ton of roof flashings etc for $3.30/kg. I plan on buying simply so I dont have to search around. I spend about 90minutes driving each day... Also I can buy pre made ingots of hardball or lyman#2, or tin etc from northern smelters on the other side of the city. Its just a bit more pricey.

    That angle iron mold is basically what I had thought of. Only I'd thought of angling the ends simply to make it easy as possible to bang out the ingots.

    Thank you re the aluminum pot. I would not have thought about the pot softening until it happened haaa.

    Re pricing, australia is not a cheap country to live in. CHEAP factory 9mm ammo is around $15 for 50 bullets. I currently reload for $10. My dillon 650 setup was about $1300 with the carbide dies. I made my own powder check A new shadow 2 retails for about $1800. I'm not sure how that compares to usa..

    Thanks again for the feedback. No doubt I will have more questions as I go further down this rabbit hole.

    Regard
    Gatch

  13. #13
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    Welcome to CB Gatch, PM sent.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Are they certain the wheel weights are all lead? Steel and Zinc are now very common in the US. $2.20/kg would be a good price if they are all lead. I wouldn't worry about the weight of the clips...

    Buying pre-formed ingots would save the expense of the whole smelting process assuming the ingots will fit into your melting furnace.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master

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    Holy cow! Dude you really came prepared for you second post! Welcome onboard and happy casting. I do not see a lot to add to the otherwise wise posts above. Casting will become an addiction, along with mould buying. It allows for so much freedom and experimentation and really allows for growth of learning.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Welcome aboard Gatch.10,000 great folks and three old grouches here.
    Any questions that you have will be answered here eventually.Superb knowledge base here.
    Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
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  17. #17
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hickory View Post
    Do not use aluminium pots for melting lead, it will in time disqualify its self with use.
    Hickory beat me to it, but I second what he says. The Al will get weak before it melts and a volume of molten lead is not something you want running around willy nilly.
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  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master Bazoo's Avatar
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    Howdy from Kentucky USA. You do not have to separate the smelting and casting operations to start with if you're not going to use a bottom pour pot. If you get the lee 20 pound ladle pot. The three main reasons people separate the operations is 1, to keep dirt out of a bottom pour pot 2, to keep fumes down if casting inside 3, to make larger batches of homogenous alloy. For pistol ammo it won't matter one bit if your alloy changes slightly from pot to pot.

    Now you want to be careful of getting water in the molten lead from a wet wheel weight so what you do if you're melting weights and casting straight away is this... Fill you pot with weights and turn it on letting them melt, clean and flux and cast till you're pot is almost empty. Then carefully pick the pot up and pour the last couple pounds lead into ingot moulds, set the pot down and refill with weights and start again. Or just do a pots worth in each session, which will be more like the amount you'll want to do before stopping.

    Plenty of folks started out smelting and casting in the same pot, I did, and it's totally fine unless you're wanting to make a very consistent alloy for a specific purpose such as competition rifle ammo.

    Just a thought for you to consider so you can get started quicker without as much cash outlay.

    Also as for lubing the bullets... Powder coating is time consuming (I've never done it just read about it), you should consider tumble lubing. 45/45/10 lube is very fast and easy and the learning curve is very short.

    Bazoo

  19. #19
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    Looking at the prices for you Down Under, I have to agree with Bazoo. Even if you just want to shake and bake PC you will need a few things besides a #5 butter or non-dairy whip topping tub.
    1) A toaster oven with ability to heat to 400 degrees F.
    2) A small pan that fits well into the toaster oven.
    3) A roll of non-stick aluminum foil.
    4) Something to grip the pills with to place them on the foil in the pan. I use reverse tension tweezers so I don't grip them to tight.
    5) Paint powder
    6) If you plan to water drop you'll need another tub for that.
    If you plan to spray the paint on you'll need a powder coat gun, I don't know about Australia but in the US these can be hard to find.

    For tumble lubing you will need;
    1) Tumble lube itself.
    2) A #5 tub for tumbling.
    3) Wax paper to place the pills on for the lube to cure.
    I don't know what the ingredients for 45/45/10 will cost there if you can find them. When I started casting I used Lee Liquid Alox. Follow the instructions and it works very well. It is kind of smelly but it is a good tumble lube. It's available in the US for $7 to $10, but a little goes a long way. Just a little info, I hope it helps.

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy
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    Evening team.

    I am fortunate enough to have a foreman at work who allows us to do personal jobs in our spare time. So I knocked up a couple of ingot molds. They are 50x50 angle @300 long. Or 2" ×2" ×12" long in american money. I took a die grinder to radius the welds so hopefully no ingots get hung up on my dodgy welding

    Only thing is the angle steel is galvanised. Will the zinc negatively effect the pouring if the lead ? If so I'll just throw them in a fire for a bit to burn it off. Staying upwind of course...

    Click image for larger version. 

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check