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Thread: How to get more BP in a .45-70 case

  1. #21
    Boolit Master Randy C's Avatar
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    Thank you I will try it.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master


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    I could only load 50gns of FF without using a drop tube and adding a card, 1/8in greese cookie, wad and another card. This was also keeping OAL below 2.60in.

    Yesterday, I built a drop tube and was able to load 80gns, but the OAL was much longer and I only used a wad. I fired it out my back door and it made a good crack! It was getting late so I had to stop for the day. I hope to experiment more today.

    I noticed that with a drop tube, I could get ten grains more powder in, but it wouldn’t compress as much as without the drop tube. I will do some more comparisons today.

  3. #23
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    greg, what is yer prime goal for building these cartridges - hunting, target, plinking? is your PPB a bore rider as i expect i should be? if so, cartridge OAL don't mean squat. just drop tube as much powder as ya can directly into a clean, primed, fire formed case, push in a wad flush to the case mouth (NO grease cookie), compress .10", push in yer PPB - if it's loose, *squeeze* (don't crimp) the case mouth with a taper or sizing die just enuf to keep it from falling out yet can still turn 'round and be pulled out with fingers, and go shoot. this is yer start load and experiment with powder and compression first.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregLaROCHE View Post
    I could only load 50gns of FF without using a drop tube and adding a card, 1/8in greese cookie, wad and another card. This was also keeping OAL below 2.60in.

    Yesterday, I built a drop tube and was able to load 80gns, but the OAL was much longer and I only used a wad. I fired it out my back door and it made a good crack! It was getting late so I had to stop for the day. I hope to experiment more today.

    I noticed that with a drop tube, I could get ten grains more powder in, but it wouldn’t compress as much as without the drop tube. I will do some more comparisons today.

    Greg
    This may or may not make sense to you
    I am still on my learning curve and I have not yet got to the paper patch bit yet (which I reckon is a long way around this racetrack from the startline) So you might think this is two different games and to a fair extent it is but there is a decent amount of crosover too

    The PP boys shoot a bore rider slug - us GG blokes can look at that and sus our chamber out - we can do bore riders if we want - but at least we look at making a load that is right up on the lands or even the first driving band engraved some

    They use a decent wad so the base of the boolit dont burn up - we do that too.

    Drop tube powder and weighed charges - careful assembly of the whole load - makes a difference

    fouling conrol is a term they use - a good grease groove boolit? - blow tube? - clean between shots? - (I have a high level of resistance to that - but I will do it if and when It makes the last bit of difference) whatever it takes to shoot accurately first shot to last - take your pick but one of em is gonna be mandatory.

    I have been campaigning a lever gun (Uberti 1876 in 45/75)

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I got it to a point where I reckon the rifle and the load is capable of this (5@ 100yards) but most often the nut behind the butt comes up a tad short

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    Like here ! I walked up for a look after three shots - thought I could put a couple more in that group - hah! seems like anytime I leave the bench I come back to it with just a little different sight picture - shot another nice three shot cluster but couldnt put in in the same place. Stiill not so shabby for an old dude with a cowboy gun.

    This is my single loader round -
    45/75 case as fired - 45/70 shell brimful of FFg powder - scooped - then weighed out and topped up to 72 grains of homebrew powder - 45 thou HDPE overpowder wad - or two juice box wads works just as well - light compression - 466 grain CBE boolit is seated .300 in the case - and I use a taper crimp die just enough that the flared case mouth doesnt snag on the chamber - one full lube groove and driving band is outside the case and the front driving band is just touching the rifling - the edge of the case mouth is right at the end of the chamber. Cases are unsized - case necks are unsized - just a tiny flare enough so the boolits dont shave when loading.

    The boolit is a shortened CBE - their copy of a Lyman postell (which is not really a Postell design at all) it carries enough lube to shoot a 12 shot string clean - so these targets are shot "dirty bore" if its a hot dry day I will use a blow tube one or two breaths only between shots - most times dont use it.
    I chronographed this load at Average 1244FPS, twenty feet from the muzzle, extreme spread was exactly 10FPS.
    Last edited by indian joe; 02-25-2019 at 09:22 PM.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master


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    Iíve had some new developments I wish to post, but donít have the figures at hand. I hope to post them tomorrow.

  6. #26
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    in a chamber meant for lubed over bore bullets, with some amount of freebore, the typical difference 'tween bore riders that are lubed and those that are patched is how much of the bullet is seated in the case, and how that amount of bullet reacts in the freebore area. this is one reason why i prefer paper patched bore riders. another reason is case powder capacity. i just loaded brand new .40-65win starline brass with 71 grains of swiss 1-1/2f under an AM 392 grain PPB bore rider with a pair of carton wads and .060" compression. the bullet is in the case .115" below its mouth. after fire forming, the real loading will begin and if need be i should be able to get upwards of 75 grains stuffed in with similar light compression; then adjusting the powder charge and compression for initial consistent accuracy testing.

  7. #27
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    First to answer RFD’s question of what I am trying to accomplish with these PP boolits. Mostly target shooting and some plinking. I enjoy reloading as much as shooting and it is interesting to figure out how to make this round work in one of the ways it was originally used. I am considering buying a Sharps replica and this is helping learn a lot about this type of shooting. I am using my lever gun to learn about loading PP rounds.

    I have come to believe my boolits are still too large in dia. (.450 dia) I’ve been sizing down pure lead and need to get smaller dies for my NOE sizer.

    I did some tests loading BP with a funnel and a drop tube. With the drop tube, I had more space, but when compressed ended up with about the same as without the drop tube and compressed. I also found that with both methods, the available space after compression varied a lot with both methods. Is that normal when trying to compress to the maximum?

    I loaded some .460 dia greesed boolits over compressed BP. The accuracy was not great. Nothing close to powder coated with smokeless. Can over compressing be bad for accuracy?

  8. #28
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    greg, i get the impression that perhaps yer doing too many things at the same time, too many changes at once? after you build a generic starter load, and want to see if a cartridge build change will yield a consistent accuracy improvement, change just one thing about the cartridge and make a number of scalable iterations of that one thing ... such as powder charge or compression or greaser cartridge OAL. there are so many things to tweak for cartridge components and the build process, it can take a goodly time to hit them all.

    there are things about most lever guns that, even if single loaded, can't be matched by most bpcr/tr guns. so if you move over from plinking fun to more "serious" target goals, the single loaded lever gun will probably not suffice. particularly for midrange and beyond.

    the main thing is keeping an interest by having fun. do enjoy!

    cheers,
    rob.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    I single load PP in both of my 95 marlins .45-70 and the .444 but I patch the bullet .002" under bore diameter so if I have to unload for some reason I can even if the bullet stays behind in the bore when I extract the case. Just a bump on the ground the bullet will fall out. If it don't I carry a short 3/8X4" brass rod in my back pocket and drop it through the barrel and this will drive a bullet even at bore diameter.
    Greg,
    I use this term "load some ladder loads" quite often. A ladder load is load a powder load with zero compression with 3 rounds or more if you like, I load 3 or even two. I only increase the next three by one grain at a time till I get to about .300" of compression, no need to go much farther unless your using some of the regular Goes, it usually like a little more.
    You mentioned that your using a pure lead bullet and running it through a sizing die. Now I don't know if your trying to size down a .458 grooved bullet or what but if it's a grooved .458" diameter your not doing yourself any favors getting accuracy out of that rifle doing this. A .450" as cast PP bullet is fine patched to groove diameter but you just seat it like a GG and the rifle will shoot it just fine. I have a swage die that will swage a slick that patches to groove diameter and it shoots lights out. Actually I like that bullet in my Light weight Marlin.
    When you load your ladder loads 2-3 or more rounds each for the first go around use a card cut from a OJ or serial box also works good, use the first wad and set it on the powder use a lube wad 1/8" or how ever thick 3/16" maybe place a .030" on the lube wad and seat your bullet. Forget a felt unless it's a lubed felt and use it instead of a lube cookie it just takes up room and softens the bullet upset that is needed to fill the grooves if your patching under bore, especially with a harder alloy like 1/16 T/L pure lead is ok if you want a light powder load.
    With a ladder load 3 shots each usually 21 rounds fired will give you a good indication what just needs a little different change to perfect your load. Usually you will find a point in two compression levels that will show accuracy promise.
    With my lever rifle I tend to seat my bullets a little deeper about 3/16" so I can apply a light taper crimp just enough so it holds the bullet. A lever rifle is not as easy to load a round as a single shot and the last thing I want is the bullet to drop out of the case loose into the action and have to fumble around getting it out. I know a couple guys using a .45-70 86 Win at gong shoots and do quite well out to the 1000 with them.
    But the most important thing you can do besides getting a good load and that is trigger time and keep good records how you loaded the round and what the down range looked like.
    Nobody can give you a good load, you will have to find it yourself. Get a proper PP bullet mould according the paper you want to use it will make your progress a lot easier.
    Let us know the progress your making.........Kurt

  10. #30
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregLaROCHE View Post
    First to answer RFD’s question of what I am trying to accomplish with these PP boolits. Mostly target shooting and some plinking. I enjoy reloading as much as shooting and it is interesting to figure out how to make this round work in one of the ways it was originally used. I am considering buying a Sharps replica and this is helping learn a lot about this type of shooting. I am using my lever gun to learn about loading PP rounds.

    I have come to believe my boolits are still too large in dia. (.450 dia) I’ve been sizing down pure lead and need to get smaller dies for my NOE sizer.

    I did some tests loading BP with a funnel and a drop tube. With the drop tube, I had more space, but when compressed ended up with about the same as without the drop tube and compressed. I also found that with both methods, the available space after compression varied a lot with both methods. Is that normal when trying to compress to the maximum?

    I loaded some .460 dia greesed boolits over compressed BP. The accuracy was not great. Nothing close to powder coated with smokeless. Can over compressing be bad for accuracy?
    Greg
    If you go back up to my last post - one of my pictures was MIA - got that corrected - you will see a nice 5 shot group smack in the bullseye 100yards - if you cant get close to that with grease groove boolit - I think (like Rob says) you maybe have too much stuff going on at once to really get any of it figured out -

    drop tube fr instance - how you pour into the funnel at the top, how fast or slow, you trickle or shake or whatever, can make up to a quarter inch difference in the settled height of the weighed charge in the case. Gotta tune the way you do that until you get the same settled height in every case (maybe my tube and funnel is deficient and you can just run on auto pilot - but thats the result at my bench)

    Maximum compression? over compression? I went round that track too - how do I get more powder in the case? eventually you figure out that a more accurate load is usually a better idea (even with smokeless we rarely get best accuracy with the hottest loads - how come we forget that and go for the max with blackpowder?) Read Kurts post above on this compression - ladder loads

    If you shot those grease boolits without a decent wad over the powder ? ---forget it! --- been there done that one too - groups were acceptable for hunting but halved with a 40 to 50 thou wad (I used two juice box wads first - now using HDPE poly wad cut from a ten litre water jug - material is proly not so important - just a decent solid wad).

    I have zero experience of PP but I always read the posts those boys put up - can learn a lot about consistency and patience in loading and shooting
    Last edited by indian joe; 02-25-2019 at 09:57 PM.

  11. #31
    Boolit Buddy Randy Bohannon's Avatar
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    Greg, please remember that lever action rifles where never designed fo a PP bullet, you said you were after ‘historical ammunition’ that won’t work as you have been told using PP bullets.
    I understand you want to learn how to PP for a single shot period correct firearm and at the same time get a PP load to shoot single shot through your lever rifle, I believe this to be accurate summation of what you are trying to achieve.
    All of this very doable with satisfactory results learning to minimize the differences in everything you do to the case, the primer,powder charge,compression,bullet selection etc. The easiest load development for me has always been doing the work to the necessary number of pieces of brass that is going to be needed ,annealed,expanded,length,primer flash hole burrs remove from the inside of the flash hole uniformed,VLD inside chamfered,outside chamfered.If your brass is not as perfect as possible it makes all of the suggestions much harder to achieve.This is not voodoo with black powder it just does better when all of variables are reduced to your satisfaction. God Bless.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check