Ballistic Products Inc - New Sabot

[snuffy]

Remy, it's my pleasure! I enjoy testing out what ever is new in the shooting sports. I guess the everyday stuff is getting boring, so I look for new endeavors. I'm only getting started, I have a few ideas to explore before getting ready for this year's deer hunt Nov. 22. IF I get a good load that's repeatable, I may carry the shotgun, even in rifle territory.

I'm thinking of casting some of those 440's in 20-1 lead tin alloy. Make them softer, maybe the sabot can get a better bite on the boolit. Besides, they would expand better too. Now calm down James, the hard cast has it's place also! That wide meplat of that 440 don't need to expand to cause trauma.

[Dixie Slugs]

I really do not care what hardness one decides to use in the BPI sabot. In some ways a softer bullet might be better for thin skin game. The bullet I have been shooting/testing is a pure lead bulet from No Excuse Bullets and has proven to be a good killer in my TC Grey Hawk.
I also know that there is a velocity/pressure level that the softer bullets set back. I don't know where that would be in the sabot and what effect it would have on side wall presure?
The main accomplishment to date is no blown sabots! BPI called us yesterday and was trying to find out the person on Slug Shootig Forum that was sayig things like BPI was smoking dope when they made the sabot....among other things. Since they all use computer names, I have read the posts but do not know who they are. I have now pulled all posts off the Dixie page about the sabot until our mold comes in and we can resume testing. During my converastion with BPI, I did state that I was critical about the loading data they had rushed out, but also said that there was nothing wrong with the saot's design indeed.
I do see potential with this sabot for the cast bullet fellows...and BPI overlooked that market! There are variuos reasons that Dixie will go with the hard cast heat treated design. That would let us use the same alloy and production setup we use for our other ammo. It would also mean we would not have to drain the casting pots and bring uo another lead mix. We would also use the same hulls, waxed wads, X12X, and maybe our standard powders. The two cavity mold we have ordered would also go on on Magma Master Casters, etc. That way we would not have to break down equipment, other than a quick mold change, each time we needed to run sabot bullets. All this matters to us, but would not matter to the reloader.
We sell quite a bit of ammo in the Southern market for big wild hog hunting...and that does call for a stouter cast bullet design. However, just look at the different ways the cast bullet loader can go with various alloy bullets! I also want to try to get away from sizing the new bullets! In the big Star Sizers, it would mean they would have to cut off the air pressue, lube heater, and pull/shut off the auto bullet feed. So much for that!
It is most important that the people here on Cast Boolits iron out all the kinks on this sabot!...no one else will with cast bullets. While we may not agree on bullet alloy...after alll it's all cast bullets!
Regards, James

[Dixie Slugs]

Oh Yes! What I would really like to know is just what real world weight and velocity the meat hunters are looking for in this sabot load?....say with a .503" - 460 gr bullet...James

[docone31]

While you are doing some great stuff with shotgun sabots, have you considered the smaller calibers?
I ask this question as I would love to be able to cast for my .30s, and load with sabots. I am not referring to .30 to .22. I was thinking about .30 to 7mm.
I do not know much about things on your end. My thought would be to size the lube lands off the castings, and use a sabot. Don't even know if it is practical. I went from trying to cast and shoot, to casting, paper patching, and shooting. I am getting better groups with my .303 British with paper, than jacketed.
You seem to put a lot of time and effort into your sabots.
I would try some if they are ever made in my calibers.

[snuffy]

Welllllllll, another range trip is over. Much to report as usual.

First I tried these loads. The X12X wad, 1 .135 federal card wad under the BLS sabot, 20.0 of E-3, 350 XTP. Never hit the 50 yard target. Recovered sabots were in terrible shape, not burned through but it looked like the xtp bullet had punched through the base of the sabot.

Next I tried some 3 inch loads, 33.0 longshot, FS12, 500 hornady sp, BLS sabot. Burned distorted sabots, holes in both the O.P. wad and sabot, 3 sideways keyholed bullets. Also a 220 fps extreme spread in velocities. These were all with the COS,(clear overshot ),wad. 3 shots each, trying to conserve sabots,(got some more coming). Huge fireball, minimal recoil.

Next were some 2- ¾ loads with the X12X wad, 33.0 longshot, 500 H, and the BLS sabot. Same story all over again as with the 3 inch load, perforated gas seal, and sabot, keyholed bullets.

Then I tried a 33.0 longshot load behind some soft cast 440 lee lead boolits,(20-1 lead/tin). These were loaded as before, a .135 card wad between the X12X and the sabot but no clear overshot wad. Finally got a somewhat decent group! The velocity was a bit higher, than with the 30.0 load I tried last Sunday. Huge extreme spread on the first 3, average of 1437, hi was 1533, but the low was 1336. Can't explain that. A second group of 3 went into a same sized group as the first, BUT the exception was the velocity averaged 1390 and the ES was only 50 fps! The recovered sabots looked pristine! AND they were opened wider, only went 20 yards, and had the imprint of the lube groves on the inside of the sabot petals!

My take on all this is; the sabots are too soft! They lack the structural integrity to endure the pressures of the powder and the bullet inside the petals. Hence the holes being poked in the base of the sabot. Only when the hard card wads are put between the O.P. wad and sabot do they perform as they should. They HAD to make them that soft to make the cushion section work.

I'm through working with the jacketed bullets. It seems they are too slick for the sabot to get a grip on them to impart spin. I'm going to fire up the lead pot again tonight to make some more of the 440 lee boolits. IF the weather holds, it was cold, grey and windy today but no rain, I may make another trip tomorrow with some new loads, or should I say more powder behind those lead boolits.

I recovered one of the card wads with a perfect imprint of the X12X wad on it's behind. I could re-use it, completely undamaged.

[longbow]

I have read both pro and con to sabot rounds though in fairness most cons are regarding price. This system should address that at least partly by allowing home casting and assembly.

I also read that many sabot shooters report flyers ~ maybe not often but enough to be a concern.

Is there that big an advantage in ballistics to go this route instead of full bore?

Slugs like Brenneke, Gualandi and Dixie Terminator or Tusker should all be quite effective to 100 yards or better.

Do the sabot slugs pack enough more energy, with accuracy, farther enough to make a big difference?

Just curious.

Longbow

[Dixie Slugs]

At the risk of being redundant....at present I do not think you will get enough support under the sabot in 12 2 3/4" to make a consistant load.
And again..that BPI plastic thing under the sabot is a real problem imdeed. In our 3" load we are using, at present, an X12X - .250" hard nitro - 3/8" hard waxed wad. I also do think there is a velocity/pressure level that will max out this sabot.....?
In the jacketed bullet...there may need to be some knurling applied to help the sabot grip the slick bullet. Really a rather simple solution that I am sure will be overlooked....as have been many suggerstions about making the sabot work.
It looks like people are just going back and repeating the basic problem of not enough support under the sabe and continued use of that BPI palctic spring thing!
What more can I say?
Regards, James

[Al in Mi]

James, how much do you left to roll crimp with that wad stackup?

The knurling idea is a good point too, a light roll between two files to give it some grip.

I'm off to try a couple of Bluedot and Steel loads this morning, with 440gr, .510 diameter, cast bullets from buddy Lloyd. They seated fine in the sabot, od across the petals is right at .729 now.

Not a nice day here, so just going to see what things do @ 50yds if I can keep the target standing in the wind.

Thanks for all your inputs and insights.

[Dixie Slugs]

I do not know exact, but a liile deeper that a standad roll crimp....no real problem, just play with the crimp until it touches the sabot lips.
A per our latest post on Dixie....we are pulling back on all sugestions/design for the BPI sabot...due to some people running the forums copying our research and saying they developed the solution to blown sabots.
When we finsih testing with the molds we have ordered and have a round ready for the market...you can rest assured we will post the load's components, bullet design, and powder/pressure on Dixie, Cast Boolits, and Beartooth...exclusive!
Regards, James

[Dixie Slugs]

For your information...attached is a picture of some recovered BPI sabots for our tests. No blown sabot indeed! No BS, just good old facts!
Regards, James

[44man]

I am going to have to study all of Dixie slugs posts because I used BP load data and here is what I got.

[Dixie Slugs]

If you would tell us what your load was, we just might be able to help. Just more pictures will not remedy the problem....nor will keeping using components that fail each time. Again...blown sabots are not just BPI's sabots. The same thing that is blowing BPI's sabots would blow other sabots and even heavy plastic wads...we have been there and done that also! At this stage of the game, I do not care whose loading data it is...unless people just want to prove that there is a problem with BPI loading data (or sabots) and want to trashed them while favoring some other makers loaded ammo. If that's the case, there is another forum that will welcome that.....in fact that forum would trash any product not favored by a very select group there.
The only reason I have become involved in at this here on Cast Boolits, is becaue I want to see a sabot the relaoder can use with cast bullets that does not cost up to .75 cents per sabot.
After seeing all the pictures and hype all over the web...I am starting to believe there are those that want to trash BPI instead of solving the blown sabot situation. Could it be some of these posters have a tie in with some other maker?...it's happen more that once indeed! Could it be some other sabot maker is worried about competition from a sabot that's cheaper?...that's happen before! There[s just too much post movement going on and not enough common sense in correcting the problem.
Dixie has teated BPI sabot enough to know first hand that there is a problem in the other BPI components...but one that can be corrected for/by the reloader.
One more time....the blown sabots are caused by two things...single or both at the same time. The wrong wad column under the sabot or the bullet moving forward in the sabot, thereby leaving an unsupported sabot bottom. It has been said that the little post in the bottom of the sabot is punching a hole...really, look at our recovered sabots. They were shot with 38 grs of Longshot! Some have said an Alcan Air-Wedge should be used as a filler...why? Some have said the X12X wad tilts...we have been using them for four years in ammo we sell and have never had one tilt! It fact there are other plastic over powder wads failed when
X12X still held the line! And on and on!
Oh well, all this is going nowhere if the people really do not want to solve the problem for various reasons mentioned indeed! If that's the case the reloaders here will lose!
Regards, James

[snuffy]

Some more tests done today, maybe some more tomorrow.

Nothing surprising today. I stuck with the 20-1 lead 250 grain,(it's supposed to cast at 240), I tried some sabots with the cushion cut-off. Same load as before, 33.0 of longshot, X12X 2 .135 card wads with a ¼ cork wad between the card wads. The group was okay, the usual 2- 2½ to 3" group @ 50 yds. Sabot was undamaged, opened and fell to the ground at 20 yds. in front of bench.

Then I tried some completely experimental loads. One was 40.0 of Aliant steel. Huge BOOM low velocity,(1125), with over 200 fps ES. Sabots went almost all the way to the 50 yd target, they were intact, looked unfired except being dirty. The petals were completely unopened. Group was 8" wide by 4" high, one bullet was slightly keyholed.

Next was 35.0 of blue dot. Probably the most uniform in velocity 20 fps ES grouped into 2" However the velocity was only 1250 fps. Since blue dot is rumored to have poor ignition in cold weather, I'll stick with longshot.

Now I opened the throttle a bit. Since BP has a load for the 500 Hornady SP at 36.0, and my boolits are 450, I could safely go there. Being careful, I loaded 3 at 35.0 and 3 more at 36.0. Here's a scan of the target, the group on the right is the blue dot load.



Then I shot the 36.0 load, here's a scanned pic of that.



Velocity is in the low 1500's, and the recoil is about all I can take. Of course I saved the hardest kickers for last. After the first 16 or so, had me softened up. Even with a past magnum pad on, it was painful.

Now, okay I know that BP says I could go up to 38.0, but somebody else better volunteer to shoot them! Besides, that's plenty good enough accuracy AND the velocity should certainly be plenty.

I'm gonna load quite a few more of the 36.0 load, just to be sure it wasn't a fluke. Then a move over to the 100 yd range, maybe even 200?

I knew I'd forget something! Rolling Eyes

Every single one of the sabots were intact, oops except for one that lost a petal. The ones that were from the 36.0 longshot load were opened the widest and all fell at 25 yds. All were shot with the X12X wad with a card wad between it and the sabot.

I also forgot the test with the alcan airwedge. Nothing spectacular, velocity was nearly the same as with the X12X, accuracy also in the ballpark.

[Dixie Slugs]

Excellent indeed! The bottom group looks about like our 38 grs of Longshot in the 12 ga 3" Mag...except we have not cut the bottom of the sabot off....and our present bullet weighs 460 grs. And...you are correct...a velocity beteen 1500'/" and 1700'/" with a 450/460 gr bullet is fine hunting load in the real world. It will compare nice with some of the famous 50 caliber guns of the past.
Regards, James

[snuffy]

Thanks James, but only one group of four sabots had the cushion cut off. It didn't make any difference whether the cushion was cut off or not.

That nice group 36.0 longshot, which was 1-¾ inches, was with the intact sabot cushion included. As I said, the hard .135 card wad prevents burn/blow through of the sabots like we had without the card wad with the jacketed bullets.

On shotgun world, some are finding that the sabots are undersized. The inside is exactly .500 and the outside or O.D. is .715. Where the barrels are running .729-.730, that leaves a sloppy fit for the bullet to get gripped by the sabot and spun by the rifling.

It should, if anything, be a real tight fit. Kind of like a sabot in a muzzle loader, hard to ram, you know they're going to work.

[snuffy]

I just took some pics of the recovered sabots;





Looks like near perfect performance. You can even see the imprint of the lube grooves on the inside of the petals near the bottom. Rifling marks are well defined on the outside.

[44man]

I just used the listed load of 23 gr of Clays with the 350 Hornady. I didn't expect such results but can see that what you say is correct. I bought a lot of extra sabots and BPI also sent some free wads and more sabots when I asked them about the problem. Nice people.
I am not too worried about the jacketed bullets anyway and have the intent of making a mold.
I have been wondering if making the nose large enough to sit on the petal angle would work, like a modified hammerhead slug. Any setback would also cause the sabot to expand into the rifling tighter too.
Then the question of grease grooves, dry of course, do they help with grip on the plastic?
I might have to buy the Lee mold too. What is the mold number?

[Dixie Slugs]

Excellent Indeed! I knew that when the folks here on Cast Boolits put their heads together they could solve the blown sabot thing....indeed.
In fact Grant Fackler said the spec sheet showed a bottom of .509".....so we have enough room to make the cast bullet bigger. The mold I ordered to be cut throws at .503" with pure lead...our bullet alloy will be a little larger.
It appears that the shouler of the bullet must be at .630: from the base for it to lock under the tits inside of the petals.....you all check that out also.
It looks like we are homing in on a succcesful combo....put I do not think we will reach (or what to?) the velocity on BPI data sheet...but who cares! I am looking for a good hunting load with a well designed hard cast!
Great work team!
REgards, James

[44man]

Hey, has anyone tried a .50 caliber maxi ball? I no longer have my mold having sold my TC .50 long ago and I can't find a maxi to check. I don't know what the length is.
Rapine also has some molds for the 50-70, .515450, 385 and 320.
I wish I had some samples.
James, what is the best length of the shell above the top of the sabot for a good roll crimp without the overshot wad?

[snuffy]

Then the question of grease grooves, dry of course, do they help with grip on the plastic?
I might have to buy the Lee mold too. What is the mold number?

Well it's my theory that the petals extruding into the EMPTY lube grooves helps grip the boolit. I suppose you could argue that if they weren't there, the petals would have more surface area to grip. But it doesn't seem to pose a problem.

The mold is C501-44-RF.

As I said, the lee boolit is a bit too long for the tits to close over the ogive. This causes the ends of the sabot petals to flare a bit. It makes the tits bite into the boolit when it's seated in the shell casing. Also, they are putting pressure on the boolit while it's in the barrel.

As far as how much case you need after everything is seated to get a good roll crimp, I haven't really measured anything. All I can say is, not much! Certainly not nearly as much as is required for a good star crimp. I'll take a couple of pics later, before and after crimping with a few measurements.