Ballistic Products Inc - New Sabot

[Dixie Slugs]

OK..Let's keep it simple! The overall length of the bullet is .930"- the bearing sidewall is .630" - .300" long Truncated cone with a .350" meplat (about 70%) - as cast with WW .503"/.504" diameter - smooth sides, no grooves - flat base. This bullet will cast right at 460 grs. and will come right at the top of the sabot. We will heat treat this bullet
Now....the tits inside the petals will grip the bullet at the beginning of the truncated cone or at .630" from the bullet's base....most important.
With this bullet - 38 grs of Longshot - BPI X12X op- 3/8" hard waxed filler wad - plus sabot/bullet is ideal to roll crimp to an overall in 12 ga. 3" Mag at 2.70". The bullet nose at this setup will be below the shell mouth and not rest on a primer in a mag tube. The bullet will be locked in and will not drive forward in the hull when in a mag tube under recoil.
That's what we use...you can play around with whatever.
Regards, James

[snuffy]

James, would it be possible to tell me/us what the charge weights you were using with longshot? I just cast some of the 440 lee's, they come up just a smidge below the end of the sabot! I'd like to load some of them, but have no idea what/where to start. Oh nuts, I see you're loading 3", I'm doing 2-¾.

I'm not sure of your reasoning about the "tits" on the inside ends of the sabot petals. I don't think the bullet HAS to contact those to receive it's spin. The spin is imparted to the bullet by the squeeze put on it as it passes down the barrel. I think the "tits" are simply there to prevent the bullet/boolit from sneaking forward in the sabot,(during cycling, being chambered).

Here's some pics I took after today's loading session;


That's some finished rounds. The 500 Hornady to the left, center is the 350 horn, and right is the lee .501-440 FN







The BP hull vise, neat tool, almost a have to have!



The new drill press from harbor freight, crude but it works just fine for now. On sale today for $65.00.

[Dixie Slugs]

Your setup looks very good...just set your drill press at its lowest spin rate.
You are correct about the tits inside of the petals. They are to lock the bullet in and apply pressure to the shoulder/ogive of the bullet so it does not move forward and leave a space under it....that's what blows these sabots. In order to lock short bullets in, I sugest a .410 hard nitro under the bullet to bring the shoulder/ogive up to .630' from the base of the sabot.
As for 12 2 3/4"..we do not load any that length. I would start with about 30 grs of Longshot and workup, watching for any pressure signs.
There needs to be support between the X12X op and the base of the sabot...nitro of filler wads in all loads.
Once one sees the problem of keeping the bullet from moving forward as the powder builds pressure in the forcing cone, etc...eveything goes to sleep indeed! We had the same startup problem with our Tri-Ball load....the bottom ball not being tight in the bottom of the plastic wad.....ergo blown wads big time!
I am not going to get into a pi$$ing a contest with the resident experts of Slug Shooting Forum or anywhere else! They should have picked up on this blown sabot problem at once!
Regards, James

[snuffy]

James, you and I think a lot alike! I took another look at the load data, they are recommending 33.0- 35.0 of longshot for the 500 jacketed, so I loaded some at 30.0 to try out today with the 440 lead boolits. If they shoot okay, I MAY try to up the charge, but if they're accurate AND they do at least 1800, I'll quit right there.

Yeah that yahoo Jaeger over at the slug shooters forum was doing something wrong! I couldn't make heads, nor tails out of his report. He says the sabots went through the ½ inch plywood target, then wonders why they were mangled!

One thing that the BP instructions stressed was to put pressure on the sabot before they were crimped. I got just about exactly 1/10 inch compression when I did it. AND they stayed put after the crimp was applied! I wonder if that yahoo did that?

Well, now to put a few more together, then head for the range. It's a beautiful fall day here in central WI!

[Dixie Slugs]

Now that's a resonable approach indeed....and shows common sense, which is rare indeed.
The entire thing started out wrong by pushing the velocity concept without stating some of the important factors involved. It all reminds me of trying to put a racing engine in a Model T Ford! The compression thing only makes sure the bullet bottoms in the sabot. But, they is still the problem of the bullet moving ahead in the sabo and developing an unsupported section in the sabot.
Regards, James

[Dixie Slugs]

OK!......This entire thing about the Ballistc Products Inc's sabot has me thinking of something I saw in Italy, when I was working over there.....a fellow coming around a mountain road...Herding Turkeys.
So....let's talk about how this sabot realtes to the folks here at Cast Boolits.
There are three potential markets for this sabot:
(1) These folks tend to shoot factory rounds. This group tends to want to extend their hunting ranges in Shot-Gun-Only states. They are concermed more with a flat trajectory and velocity, than bullet performance on game.
(2) These are folks that try to reduce the cost of facrory rounds by loading all styles of exotic stuff...which still includes jackert bullets.
(3) There are the people that are looking at the potential of this sabot for various cast bullets
Cast Boollits fall into this last important group # 3. So, let's talk about that number 3 group, which agains falls into groups:
(1) Those that will buy cast bullets and load them in the sabot.
(2) Those that will acquire molds for existing bullets.
(3) Those that will have a mold cut by somebody that will cast bullets for this sabot.
Both #1 and #2 will need to understand that the shoulder/ogive of those bullets need to be at about .630" from the base of the sabot....most important. For loghter bullets, they need to add .410" nitros to build up the shoulder/ogive of the bullets to be under the tits inside the sabot's petals. And have a firm support under the sabot. This calls for a good overpowder wad like the BPI X12X, plus some hard waxed filler wads. The final wad stack, including the the sabot must roll crimp to the the overall length of the shell thta is no more that 2.70" in the 12ga. 3". The meplat of the bullet should be below the rolled crimped mouth. It really doesnot matter if the bullet has lube grooves or not. The sabot has a very slight step down in the petal area. This will allow cast bullets above .503" diameter to be used as long as that diameter bullet seats down on the sabots base.
Now for #3....An ideal cast bullet design for that sabot will be a smooth sided bullet. There should be a shoulder, or ogive, at about .630" from the bullets base....and an OAL bullet length about .930". The .930" bullet will stabilize in a one turn in 34" rifled barrel, as is the popular Hastings barrels. The bullets nose should have at least a 70% meplat for good tissure damage. This bullet design will be about 460 grs.
Now...since the cast bullet is in a sabot...the molder/reloader can use various alloy hardness. For pure lead bullets, hold the velocity around 1400'." because of possible bullet setback. For heat treated alloy...the velocity will be what you want to load, but take recoil into consideration indeed.
An ideal soft bullet can be bought from No Excuse Bullets in Roy, Utah. We have tested this bullet and it works fine. It's the same bullet we use in out 50 caliber ML"s. The popular Hastings barrels are .716"/717" on the lands and .727" in he grooves. These are the numbers to consider whan selecting the cast bullets diameter.
Again....the sabot must have a solid base under the sabot! In 12 gauge 3" and the 38 grs of Longshot....we use a BPI X12X and a hard waxed 3/8'" wad from Circle Fly....rolled crimp down onto the front edge of the sabot's petals. This gives the OAL length of 2.70" im 12 ga 3"/
That's about it, folks!
Regards, James

[GrizzLeeBear]

James, thanks for all the great info!

Snuffy, looking forward to your range report!

[snuffy]

ARGHHHHHH! THE RANGE WAS CLOSED!

We're a private range that butts up to a nature preserve on the north side. Once each fall we close the range for shooting to let the bunny huggers take a romp in their woods, unbothered by us shooting. I just plain forgot that was to be today. Nobody wants to know if these sabots work as advertised worse than me, guess we'll have to wait til tomorrow.

[longbow]

While everyone else seems excited by the sabot idea I am still working towards a slow twist choke tube or barrel suited for full bore round ball or "square" slug.

Since I can't seem to find anyonme interested in making a slow twist tube I am going to try making my own rifling bench and make my own choke tube and maybe even barrel.

Maybe a little off topic but I am with James on the full bore slug.

Longbow

[snuffy]

Well which do you want first, the good news or the bad?

Okay, here's the good news, what there is of it!

I took along a few test loads, that were actually work ups for the 440 50 cal lead boolits,(lee mold C501-44-RF). I decided to try the longshot recipe for the 500 Hornady SP, BUT substitute the lee lead boolit. I reduced the longshot load from 35.0 to 30.0. Then since I had just mounted the scope, boresited it, but didn't know where it would hit at 50 yds. So I loaded 3 shells, 2 at 28.0 and 1 at 29.0 for sighters/scope adjusters. Here's where they hit a target that someone had been using for some 30 cal.



The lower two boolits were the 2 at 28.0, upper left is the 29.0.

I adjusted down about 4" and began firing the 350 XTP-HP'S I had trouble with the chrono NOT wanting to record/see the bullet/sabots. Here's the results;



Only one bullet hit either point or base forward, IE made a round hole! The rest hit completely SIDEWAYS! Big fireball, low or no recoil, and destroyed sabots/overpowder wads. I lowered the chrono so the bullet would pass higher over the screens, got it to read 4 of the 350 HP's.
1707, 1742, 1179, 1771.



Holes through both overpowder wads and the sabots. A guy over at shotgun world (slug shooters forum), got similar results with the clays load with 300 HP's.

Then, I put up a clean target, shot the 5 loads I had for the 30.0 gr. longshot, with the lee 440 lead.



Now that's what I'm talkin about! BUT, there's always the but, velocity was no where near what it was supposed to be.

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Hi. 1385
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SD. 28.3

Recoil was sharp, but manageable. The recovered sabots were real nice looking, just like they should look.



I only found one X12X overpowder wad, from the good looking sabots. It's lower left in the pic, looks fired, but undamaged.



So what's my take on all this? If I had to go hunting real soon, I'd increase the longshot load to 35.0, shoot another group then sight in with the 440 lead boolits.

James, at Dixie Slugs thinks a card wad between the sabot and the X12X wad would prevent the pressure from blowing a hole in both the wad and sabot. I don't know if there's room to do that, but I do have some of them, unlubricated, but a soak in some lee liquid alox would solve that problem. He also thinks that the shorter XTP bullets need a .410 wad under them so they can't move forward during firing. I have some of them too, I may try that.

[Dixie Slugs]

OK...Let's look at what you have! The longer cast bullets were not moving in the sabot. The velocity was much lower, as was our 12 ga - 3" - .503" - 460 gr - 38 grs of Longshot - 1400'/" - 20" Hastings barrel...that the listed BPI load of 500 gr Hornady - 38 grs - 2350'/". I am beginning to think the BPI numbers or from a 30" pressure solid test barrel....no matter that they say they are from a 24" Hastings barrel.
You shold try a .250" (or two .125") nitro under the sabot, insted out the X12X, and see if you get blown wads....if you do, it's the lighter bullet moving forward in the sabot, leaving a space. Note, although the velocity was slower, the longer cast bullet did not move in the sabot.....no blown wads.
The bullet just has to stay lock back into the sabot. If you look at the sabot...there is a slight step down in the petal area. I do not think a .short 500" diameter jacketd bullet is being squeezed down by the petals enough to keep it from moving forward When the sabot/bullet hit the leades at 2.84" (in a 3" chamber) the short bullet moves forward in the sabot and leaves a space under the bullet. The best I can mike the outside diameter of the sabot petals with a .503' cast bullet is .718"/719"...and that is why I reported that the rifling marks on the fired sabot petals were shallow...in a barrel that the lands are 716"/.717". Your recovered sabots are a little smoky, as are mine.....blowby? Just some thoughts!
Regards, James

[GrizzLeeBear]

Now that's what I'm talkin about! BUT, there's always the but, velocity was no where near what it was supposed to be.

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Hi. 1385
Lo. 1311
ES. 73.3
SD. 28.3

Snuffy, nice report!

Since the 440 boolt and sabot are about 1 1/8 oz. I was looking at Hodgdon data for 1 1/8 oz. shot loads. Now, I know slug and shot data will be different, but the laws of physics being what they are, if you shoot a projectile of equal weight with an equal amount of same powder you will get about the same velocity, right? They show Longshot loads of approx. 31 grains with a velocity of about 1420 fps and up to approx. 35 grains going 1530 fps. So, by comparison, your load of 30 gr. and velocity of approx. 1350 fps seems to be in line with what should be expected. I would bet that when you work it up to 35 gr. your velociy will be right around 1530 or so.
I think James is right about the BPI data being a little, shall we say, optimistic? According to their data shooting a heavier (500 gr) projectile with a slightly higher powder charge (38 gr) gets you 1,000 fps more velocity?! Something fishy there. The velocities that you and James are getting seem much more in line with published data for the +/- 1 1/8 oz. projectiles.

[Dixie Slugs]

Yes. it looks pretty good, except the 1400'/" velocity was what I got with Primex 513..I have not chrono'ed the 38 grs of Longshot yet...see previous posts about the 1400'/".
Yes, you are fairly correct about weights, except a shot load has more sidewall pressure than a full bore of equal weight ...or maybe a sabot. In doing the final tests at Dixie on full bores, it took more powder to brimg uppressure with a full bore to equal the velocity of an equal weight shot load....but its's a good place to start!
Regards, James

[snuffy]

Grizzleebear, I did the same thing before pulling the trigger the first time. I weighed the entire wad stack, it was 522.8 grains for the entire package,(with the 440 gr. lead boolit). That is between 1-1/8 and 1 ¼ ounces. I felt safe with those powder charges, I feel safe going above those charges too.

James has it right, a slug/sabot behaves more like a solid projectile than a shotcharge would. Hence lower pressures.

I feel confident that an accurate load CAN be obtained with a little tweaking here and there.

[Dixie Slugs]

Oh, I have no doubt at all that this group will develop an outstanding cast bullet load with this sabot.....I do not know, or really care. about other bullets.
This all is nothing new to me. I had to start from scratch developing all the Dixie loads. There was no information about 12 bore (.730) cast bullet data, except some British ballistics that was a hundred years old.
It is also nothing new to see inflated velocity numbers all over the shotgun slug loads today. People are shooting loads that may be only 75% of the velocity they "think" they are getting. This also applies to some of the factory stuff out there.
Let's be realistic indeed! Just how much velocity does the shooter/hunter really need when throwing a cast bullet weighing 450 to 500 grs? My approach to all this is the find a load that is safe with a cast bullet .503"- 460 grs and call that what I am looking for...at what the final safe velocity turns out to be. I am not going to try to match BPI's data, since I already feel it's inflated or from a 30" test barrel. I really do not know at this time what the final velocity will max out at? I would like to get into the 1700'?' - 1800'/" range if possible....but I will settle for a hunting load in the 1600'/" range. I already have a true .727" - 600 gr (Tusker) in the 1500'/" range, but recoi is rough to say the least.
It appears now that some things have to be done with this sabot:
(1) A firm under base usling a good over powder wad and some semi hard waxed filler wads.
(2) A cast bullet that is locked at .630" from the inside base of the sabot. That can be a full length bullet or a lighter one that has nitro cards under it....but whatever, it can not leave a space betweeen the bullet's base and the sabot...period.
(3) A powder with a burn rate around Blue Dot or Longshot (for weights over 300 grs)...and maybe even Steel when the weight get's to 500 grs and up.
After all that is done. It all boils down the amount of whatever powder to get safe velocity.
And...all this is not new! It's just step by step in developing safe cast bullet loads whether it is pistol/rifle type cast bullets or the Ultra-Bore cast bullets like 12 bore. The fellows here on Cast Boolits have been developing loads for years with cast bullets....it just more of the same when you really get down to it! So, let the speed freaks, etc. go at it trying to make a long range rifle out of a shotgun! There is tons of exotic stuff blasted all over the web that is totally useless to the everyday shooter/reloader/hunter! Forget, for now, what BPI says...and just do the same as you have been doing in developing any cast bullet load!
Regards, James

[Dixie Slugs]

Friends..I am at a loss on the BPI sabot thing. Early today I have them shoot the 38 grs loads with the .503" - 460 gr cast bullet in the BPI sabot.
The velocity was an avg of 1415'/" with very littke shot to shot variation indeed. This test was under very cintrolled situation over our adjusted chronos. The asbot petals were flared to about 45 degress, no blown wads, a accuracy offhand was not bad at all for resting elboxs on knees. bullets hit the 50 yard target absolutely point on! Our people are good at this type testing, as they have done enough over the last four years with hard cast of all sizes indeed!.
We are looking at about 900'/" difference in BPI stated velocity with our 460 gr vs their 500 gr...with the same powder charge of 38 grs of Longshot in 12 ga 3" chamber.....ours out of a Hastings 20 rifled barrel/scope. I am through with testing until our new mold comes in. They have said the tested in a 24" Hasting barrel...indeed! I could swallow a 100'/" diffence between the 20" and 24" barrel.....but 900'/" plus?
After our mold comes (likely two months) I will again start testing with various burn rate powder. Since we are now getting 1500'/" with a .727"-600 gr bullet with Primex 513...we should beat that some.....? In the meantime. I will be watching with great interest what you all come up with. Plese keep me informed! When we start up testing again at Ole' Dixie I will be sure you get all our test data! Be careful!
Regards, James

[GrizzLeeBear]

James, it is nice to hear an ammunition maker/seller with a voice of reason and not obsessed with maximimum velocity/power. I do not need an elephant gun to kill whitetail deer. Just ask the last one I killed a few weeks ago with my .54 flintlock at 90 yards. Oh, thats right, you can't cause she's DEAD and im my freezer. IMO a lot of people would shoot more accurately and kill/recover more deer with their shotguns if they shot ammo that didn't beat the crap out of them.
Looks like my estimate of 1500 fps with the 440 bullet is possible, even in a 2 3/4" shell. If the accuracy is there, I think it would be an excellent 150 yd. deer load.

[Dixie Slugs]

Grizz your post came in just after I posted my last one. Now....I have been in this game a long time and have pushed for proper designed cast since 2000 on Beartooth and four years on Ole' Dixie. I have suggested. on the Dixie page, that serious hunters should vist/post on Cast Boolits and Beartooth!
Yes, Dixie has developed some very powerful cast bullet loads indeed, but this sabot project was/is designed to give the everyday hunter a moderate hunting load with a bullet in the 450/460 cast bullet range. We have invested in/ordered a production mold for a .503"- 460 gr truncated cone bullet that is .930". smooth sides, with the truncated cone starting at .630" from the bullet's base. If everything turns out, we may offer that bullet as a component...but only if we are satified with it!
If you read my last post...you will see that we have to shut down further teating until our new mold arrives...we are in the middle of our biggest sale month indeed.
You can rest assured that Dixie is comitted to cast bullets and also those reloaders that do not but factory rolled ammo....and most of all to the everyday hunter!
Regards, James

[snuffy]

One thing I failed to mention last night was the fact that because the 440 .501 boolit has lube grooves, it is taller for that weight. If it were a "slug" or no grooves, it would be shorter for the same weight. So, okay most of you know that, but here's why I mentioned it. That makes the "tits" or nubs press against the side of the ogive of the boolit. That makes the outsides of the sabot bigger than the inside of the shell. I bulges it out, but not so much that it won't chamber. The boolit that James has ordered should just fit under the nubs, or just slightly push the petals out a bit.

Today dawned wet and windy, so no trip to the range. Maybe tomorrow, but once I enter the workweek, it's all I can do to get rested and ready for work another day. Come on retirement, 3 yrs 3 months away!

[remy3424]

Snuffy, The Iowa slug hunters for one, are loving the early load development you have going on!!! I told a buddy about this project and he ordered 100 sabots for me to play with this winter!! By January you and others should have the hard work done and the rest of us will have a huge jump-start to finding what the loads that we can use to replace our $2/each saboted shells. Thanks in advance!! I hope this group can get these things printing tight groups and flat shooting to boot!! You go!!