lead non HP for self defense

[725]

Police departments across the country used lead 158 gr SWC's for decades, with good effect. I have seen them work very well, even against heavily clothed subjects. This is another case of so many work well, there is no definitive right or wrong. Enough speed with enough weight, works.

[bmortell]

id have to disagree, potential risk from agreeing is too high. saving 5 dollars by calling expensive ammo "hype ammo" is fun, but if one don't expand, overpenatrates and hits a bystander that 5 dollars isn't gonna cover the damage. also don't think it matters if gel isn't accurate cause there no logical reason why it wouldnt proportionally translate to scale when comparing different loads.

for home defense or carry in public load mitigating over pen is top priority and a good factory loaded hollow point or a soft expanding cast should be chosen and tested in your gun with several water based mediums to be sure of reliable expansion before carrying it. woods carry is different and a solid may be better in that case. in example loading your CCW 357 with 180gr flatpoints before heading off shopping probably not a good idea, much safer with something that can be catched with loose cloth after going through 10-12 inches of water. when people say things like shot placement is what matters that don't mean all your other responsibilities are gone.

[mold maker]

With hunting or target loads, choosing the best combo load is easy since there is ample time to test and improve for a given circumstance.
Self defence demands use of what is onboard regardless of situation. ie Still-fast moving, heavy-light clothes, shot aimed-cntr mass, safe-no choice background, ect. The out-come may even depend on how many shots are available.
If the shape and content of the projectile is that important, your using too small a gun.

[FergusonTO35]

I would search the net for some info. There was a man that worked in the coroners office in Atlanta,Ga. He worked there for something like 20 years. Untold autopsies on gunshot victims. His perspective was unique after 1000's of autopsies. He was not big on hollowpoints under 40 caliber. He also said most manufacturers hype on hollowpoints is just hype. He says bullet performance in the human body has little resemblence to ballistic gelatin.
The important thing was not what the bullet started out as but where the bullet ended up at and what it went through to get there.
The ideal bullet / ballustics could not be determined, until the autopsy was completed.

I once talked to an old copper whose issue side irons spanned from the Colt Police Positive Special to the Glock 17. He said that the most effective handgun round he ever saw was the .38 +P 158 grain lead hollow point. He had sat in on the autopsies of perps who had their careers cut short by them and the results were always impressive. "One per customer is all you need!" he quipped.

[gwpercle]

160 grain cast wadcutter , Lyman # 358432-160 , or NOE's recreation ,
38 special +P load of 5.2 grains Unique .
The flat wadcutter nose hits hard and cuts a full diameter hole.
Get an NOE hollow point mould and you have a good SD boolit.
Gary

[RED BEAR]

Even though i carry a pretty large gun most times (41 mag). There are plenty of times i carry something a lot smaller 22, 25 or 32 acp . It is far more important where you hit than what you hit with. Most bad guys will stop doing bad things when shot with anything not wanting to be shot again. And if they don't thats why you don't carry a single shot. And i know a lot don't see the lowly 22 or 25 as a self-defense round but a hole in the head is a hole in the head and many a person has been laid low by those calibers. If you feel better carrying something bigger then by all means do so. I normally carry a substantial gun . The main point i am making is if you hit something in the right place it is more important than what you hit them with.

[FergusonTO35]

Even though i carry a pretty large gun most times (41 mag). There are plenty of times i carry something a lot smaller 22, 25 or 32 acp . It is far more important where you hit than what you hit with. Most bad guys will stop doing bad things when shot with anything not wanting to be shot again. And if they don't thats why you don't carry a single shot. And i know a lot don't see the lowly 22 or 25 as a self-defense round but a hole in the head is a hole in the head and many a person has been laid low by those calibers. If you feel better carrying something bigger then by all means do so. I normally carry a substantial gun . The main point i am making is if you hit something in the right place it is more important than what you hit them with.

[9.3X62AL]

I have constructed practice loads via reloading that closely duplicate my carry ammunition's performance characteristics for almost 40 years. Some of those loads use cast bullets, others use jacketed bullets.

[Chainsaw.]

No point in practicing with premium bullets. Load cheap ammo so you can get alot of trigger time, occasionally load some cheap bullets over a full power (SElf defense) load and shoot those to get the feel of shooting the full power loads. The recoil is the only real factor you need tk aorry about unless some how your point of impact is radically different.

[Jtarm]

Whiterabbit, YES!
I’m strongly in favor of full wadcutters cast soft and driven hard. Especially in the magnums, they can produce moderate expansion, good penetration and are great performers under 50 yards.

I suggest you line up gallon water jugs and shoot through them. I like my defensive boolits to stop in the fourth water jug and shred the first couple of jugs. It’s a great way to compare boolit to JHP performance, and boolit to boolit performance.

I’ve used cast hollow points in 357, 9 and 40. But the noses tend to blow up and limit penetration to the second jug. I’ve switched to cup points (NOE molds) and the boolits stay together, expand and penetrate to the 4th jug. My typical alloy is 96% pb, 2% sn and 2% sb, air cooled and I usenFelix lube.

My 38’s, 44s (Spl and mag) and 45 Colt all use soft wadcutters. I do still have some 357 soft wadcutter loads that work great, but I’m playing with the cup points now and they’re doing just fine too.

Have any pictures of your cup-point booits?

[shooting on a shoestring]

Just took one. 357 and 9mm NOE cup points. They’re really just shallow hollow points.

[brewer12345]

I think the primary goal is trigger time. No reason to use premium ammo. Just shoot, a lot. Ideally you would spend at least part of the time shooting a load that has similar boolit weight and power as your defense load, but getting enough trigger time is the most important thing. If you can shoot your chosen gun almost in your sleep, switching up ammo when the time comes is unlikely to make much difference. I have a ways to go with my usual revolver for self defense, a long way to go with the 45 ACP, but with the shotgun I have shot thousands of rounds with for trap and killed everything from squirrels to geese I know I could make shots under stress because it is instinctive.

[FergusonTO35]

Just took one. 357 and 9mm NOE cup points. They’re really just shallow hollow points.

Is your revolver a Security Six?

[shooting on a shoestring]

Ha. Yep that one is a high mileage 4” Security Six. It’s a 151 series. I’ve got another I like a little better that’s also a 4” 150 series. The 150 was hardly fired when I got it and has the better trigger of the two. The low back suits me fine. The 151, well it’s part of my security system. Carries well too.

[FergusonTO35]

Awesome, love those Sixes! I have a Service Six .38 in stainless from 1988, last year for them.

[Norske]

Am I the only one that uses Skeeter Skelton's load for 38 Special? It uses a swaged hollow base wadcutter bullet (from Hornady or Speer) seated backwards. I doubt it would penetrate heavy clothing very well, but it should work as a defense load when people wear light clothing.

[FergusonTO35]

Every test I have seen indicates that the backwards HBWC will likely plug up and behave like a standard wadcutter upon encountering heavy clothing.

[35remington]

Most report poor accuracy and tumbling of the bullet at anything much beyond powder burn range, which includes my experience. I’d rather load it with the front end to the front and rely upon the flat point for effect.

The accuracy was much too lacking for my taste when loaded with the hollow base to the fore. Penetration seems much too abbreviated when they do expand.

[tazman]

When I loaded the swaged hollow base wadcutters backwards in 38 special, the results were pathetic from both an accuracy and penetration standpoint.
When I did the same thing using my own cast version, acccuracy was much better, quite usable in fact since the boolits were a harder alloy. Unfortunately, there was little effective expansion since when the hollow opened up, the sides invariably broke off and I was left with the short, solid portion of the boolit.
Now I use a version of Lyman's 358432. It shoots really well and penetrates well also. It has a large meplat that, while it doesn't expand, has enough surface area to be effective.
The only way to really improve on it would be to cast it soft and with a standard type hollow point. NOE makes a version of this boolit that can be cast as a hollow point and should work quite well in that regard.

[Groo]

Groo here
When talking JHP many say an impact speed of 1000fps is needed to insure deformation .[in under .40 cal]
Faster is better .
This puts the smaller stuff at a disadvantage..
Even 9mm is on the edge...
When you go to 38super,357sig 357 mag there is a large jump in speed , 200 fps or greater at same weight bullet.
For jackets in revolver I like the Rem SJHP in the lighter weights , lots of lead exposed...
Autos need jackets all the way up to feed well and dont deform as easy.
SOFT cast is very different , but still needs close to 1000 fps to work well..