New Lyman 4 Cavity Mold - First Impressions

[Taterhead]

I cast with a new Lyman 401638 4 cavity mold. It was made in March 2018, and according to the Lyman catalog, it was made in the USA. This is my first Lyman mold. For perspective, I own, or have owned and used RCBS, NOE, LBT, Accurate, H&G, and Lee molds. I have heard that recent editions of Lyman molds cast a bit undersized, and we've heard many stories of quality lapses and apathetic product support. Being that I PC my bullets, a tad undersized actually seemed like a good thing. The main reason I sold my NOE molds -- they are portly for PC. So when I stumbled upon a Midway clearance sale, I jumped.

My initial impressions were that the mold seemed to be of good quality. The blocks mated well, and it came in a nice plastic case. The handles said Made in China on the box. They are substantial, but noticeably bendier than RCBS and NOE handles. The molds have a lot of different markings on the blocks. One is obviously the date, but not sure what everything else signifies.





First the good news. The bullets dropped from my molds at a very consistent .401", and each cavity was pretty close in weight and dimensions. They weigh 177.5-178 grains. So they drop the advertised size/weight. My alloy was 3% Sb and 1% Sn with a melt temp ranging from 700-725F. Bottom pour from a Pro Melt. Seems like a nice bullet.

Note that the parting lines look exaggerated in the photo. They are actually very faint.



Now the bad news:

The hold down screw. The sprue plate cannot close if the hold down screw is seated fully. So it must be unscrewed 1/2 turn for the sprue plate to close. There is no provision for a set screw, so it spins freely. That meant fiddling with the hold down screw every cast or two. More than aggravating. I contacted Lyman today, and was pleasantly greeted with a nice lady in CS. She is sending a replacement screw. I don't have high hopes that it will fix it. Lock tight or maybe a very thin shim/washer might work too or some copper wool on the threads. Probably the sprue plate itself is a little thick. This is the extent that the sprue plate can close with the screw fully seated.



The sprue plate: No mold have I ever used so stubbornly held onto the sprues. The technique was to invert the the mold and hit the hinge of the handles FIRMLY, sometimes multiple times, or sprues would not release. I worried about the kinetic force being imparted on the pivot screw. Every few casts would leave a little disk of lead in the sprue holes. Looking further, the angled cut does not go the base of the sprue plate, leaving a bit of cylinder to grab lead. I looked at my other molds, and none are like this. A little polishing might help. And the question will be asked, so I'll get in front of it with an answer. Yes, it was plenty hot, and different sprue plate temps did not change things.



The cavity nearest the sprue hold down screw will not release bullets without a few HARD whacks on the handles. I was not able to locate a burr with the Qtip technique, but did not spend enough time examining. I'll spend a little more time with it.


I followed that mold with an RCBS 38-150-SWC. Wow, what a difference! It just works. Nice mold! Then an old H&G 2 cav, and it casts nicely too. Lastly, the 4 cav LBT, which is ABSOLUTELY DREAMY to use.

All-in-all a mixed experience with some work to get it right. If I can fix the sprue plate and hold-down issue, and the stubborn cavity, this will be a useful mold with a profile that seems to work with my Glocks.

[Buckshot]

.................I am sad to hear that Lyman's handles are now made in China, but not surprised. Just look at what GM has done. In any event, so far as the SP hold down bolt goes, rather then deal with Lyman I'd simply remove it, then D&T into the threads for it from the side and install a #6x40 setscrew. That way you'll have all the adjustment you want without worrying about the screw loosening.

If you have lead hanging in the SP fill pockets, a bit of honing will remedy the situation. Lay the SP on a flat surface, then pour just a 'Button' of lead into each sprue pocket. Once set up get a suitably sized Phillips screwdriver. Using your Mk1 Mod1 Eyeball detector centerup the business end of the screwdriver over each lead button and give the screwdriver a smart whack with a hammer. At this point I will add, that if you should happen to have a Dremel and find Cratex rubber abrasive bits you may forgo the previous and simply use the bits and rotary tool to smooth up the sprue pockets.

With no Dremel on hand and the lead bits awaiting, anoint one with valve lapping abrasive and set in the appropriate sprue pocket then rotate the screwdriver between the palms of your hands. Without a whole lot of time the sprue pocket should be much smoother. Since the pocket was cut with a rotary tool, and roughness will be circular. Same as the movement of the lead bit. You won't get, and don't need a mirror finish. Just knock off any 'Anchors' the molten lead might stick.

...............Buckshot

[OS OK]

That's real sad to see.
I know what it's like to work with a red-headed stepchild of a mould...there's no pleasure in it at all.

This is just very poor fit and finish and there's no excuse for it due to the price they hang onto these moulds.
I guess it's either the bean counters or the GM of Lyman or both but this is not acceptable, I won't be looking towards Lyman for a new mold.

If I really thought that someone over there really gave a dang, I might send it back with a scathing report on how well it doesn't cast...I doubt anyone cares anymore.

[Taterhead]

That's real sad to see.
I know what it's like to work with a red-headed stepchild of a mould...there's no pleasure in it at all.

This is just very poor fit and finish and there's no excuse for it due to the price they hang onto these moulds.
I guess it's either the bean counters or the GM of Lyman or both but this is not acceptable, I won't be looking towards Lyman for a new mold.

If I really thought that someone over there really gave a dang, I might send it back with a scathing report on how well it doesn't cast...I doubt anyone cares anymore.

I happen to be a corporate bean counter, so that reference made me chuckle a little. Only bad accountants advocate for changes that tick off the customers because bean counters hate losing revenue more than we hate costs! Cost of production is an important consideration if one wants to operate a sustainable business -- obviously.

I think what happens is poor succession planning. The new generation loses their way because prior generations lack sufficient planning for the handover of expertise. They also fail to instill passion. The bright minds that really understand how to design and assemble a product move on, and the mission critical deliverables become less obvious to the new crop of managers.

Inside my mold case was a sticker with the name of the lady that inspected the mold. I wonder if she actually casts bullets? If not, how would she understand that I had an obvious (to me) problem where the sprue plate wouldn't close?

[Conditor22]

I'm glad the cavities drop near the same, I've seen too many newer Lyman 4 cavity molds where the cavities were WAY OFF.

Unfortunately Lyman's quality control, warranty and customer service has gone down the drain.

I have used a Countersink Bit (of the correct angle) to smooth the sprue holes, you must smooth/debur the bottom of the SP before putting it back on the mold

Try rubbing the edges of the sticky cavity with a carpenter pencil/wood of some sort quite often that will fix a sticky cavity -- if not, a quick polish of the cavity will work.

Or like OSOK suggested, send it back.

I've had good luck with the Lee401-175-TC 6 cavity apr $50 shipped

[Taterhead]

I appreciate the good tips. I think I can make this into a serviceable mold with a little work. Thankfully the cavities are dimensionally correct, and the blocks close up nice and tight.

[leadhead]

For the money Lyman charges for there molds, you shouldn't have to do any work
on them.... I gave up on Lyman years ago.
Denny

[Taterhead]

Yeah, I kind agree leadhead. It's one thing to have to work on a $26 Lee mold, another thing if it retails for > $100. Thankfully I didn't pay near that amount.

[Taterhead]

I received a shipping confirmation for the hold down screw. Thus far, customer support has been attentive. I'm skeptical that this will be a solution.

[Taterhead]

I'll probably just need a new sprue plate. That will be a more rigorous test of their CS prowess.

[Jack Stanley]

In my experience that is their standard way of making that type of sprue plate . That and other problems with their product and company are why I don't even try their products any more .

Jack

[Harles Dawson]

I used red loctite on my spruce plate screw. The one without a set screw. Used on 3 molds, no more problems.

[samari46]

one of your problems is that from the pics is that the cutting edge is not done correctly on the sprue plate. Should be an almost knife edge. Thats why you have to whack the sprue plate to cut off the alloy in the sprue plate holes. Buckshot came up with a workable solution. Could use a counter sink to better refine the cutting edge. Also check the sprue plate for flatness. Didn't see the curved washer under the sprue plate screw, is there one?. And no set screw for locking the sprue plate screw?. Lyman's mold quality seems to have taken a down turn. I have a Lyman 311284 that went back to them because the nose portion was way undersize. They sorta kinda reamed it out as you can see a slight scraping on the nose. For a mold manufacturer that's been around for over a 100 years that's pitiful. The only lyman mold that casts where it's supposed to is the 314299 which was originally for the 303 british .303-.304 on the nose and .314 on the body which I shoot in a Finn model 27. Frank

[Walks]

When I got got back into casting, I thought a few of my older Ideal/LYMAN molds had a bit of extra wear on their sprue plates & screws. So I ordered Mold Rebuild kits from Lyman.
Every single sprue plate was rough on the bottom. They all required polishing to avoid scratching the top of the mold halves.
My first Lee 6cav required polishing too.

Since then I have taken to polishing Every Sprue plate from every mold I've bought in the last 3 years. Regardless of Manufacturer. This has probably solved problems before they happen. And one of the side effects is sharply cut sprues.

And It's so simple and easy to do.

[OS OK]

I happen to be a corporate bean counter, so that reference made me chuckle a little. Only bad accountants advocate for changes that tick off the customers because bean counters hate losing revenue more than we hate costs! Cost of production is an important consideration if one wants to operate a sustainable business -- obviously.

I think what happens is poor succession planning. The new generation loses their way because prior generations lack sufficient planning for the handover of expertise. They also fail to instill passion. The bright minds that really understand how to design and assemble a product move on, and the mission critical deliverables become less obvious to the new crop of managers.

Inside my mold case was a sticker with the name of the lady that inspected the mold. I wonder if she actually casts bullets? If not, how would she understand that I had an obvious (to me) problem where the sprue plate wouldn't close?

Tater, this is a problem that goes much deeper than the mere fit and finish of this Lyman mould...not only is it drill bits that need sharpening and machines that need adjusting and jigs that need aligning, it's a lack of 'esprit de corps' within their organization.
Not only have the costs of manufacturing been rung out excessively but the application and management of the labor force has most likely seen the same coarse actions from above on the corporate floor where they specialize in lack of common sense solutions...where they pound round pegs into square holes to save a penny...dang the relations.
I've seen it happen to my customers several times...they start out a Ma & Paw business and run for a decade or so, employees and management alike have a keene sense of duty and responsibility to manufacture a top shelf product, people are proud of what they've accomplished together. Then one day for whatever reason...here comes a bean counter or a crew of them specializing in fine tuning a factory where they don't even understand the product going out the back door.
They look at and treat the employees as non human objects...see them as a mere cost that needs trimming...it goes on and on until the family of workers in that little manufacturing facility become unrecognizable to the fella like me who installed their first machines a decade ago.
One day I walk in to find a new plant engineer instead of the old cigar smoking gentleman who understood every heartbeat of the operation. Now I am dealing with a young graduate from some college or university that has never had dirty grimy hands, some new kid that has never spent a holiday weekend around the clock performing surgery on a plant that has to re-open and run on the following Monday morning and on time to boot . . . a new man that is filling the shoes of a man for 1/2 the cost of the old gentleman, and here it will begin.
I go into the bowels of the plant and find many new faces, faces without smiles wearing blank uncaring looks on their faces...then I realize that the bean counters have arrived.
Sometimes it is that the factory has been sold and the new owners are just 'streamlining' and sometimes it is actually needed for the company to grow and expand into the future...volumes could be written regarding this but the bottom line is that somewhere in the past they lost the original focus and purpose of making that product and the factory started to morph into some kind of hybrid 'AI' environment.
I like to call it Corporate Greed where the bottom line is more important and has the constant focus of the suits in management...and I like to refer to the corporate team of experts collectively as the bean counters as unfair as it may sound . . . for my perspective is from the factory floor where blood sweat and tears are invested and there are no suits and ties...just blue collar boys using good common sense, boys that used to be considered the backbone of any industry.

So...there's a 2¢ estimate at what's basically wrong with this particular mould...nothing personal against the professional bean counter.

[Taterhead]

one of your problems is that from the pics is that the cutting edge is not done correctly on the sprue plate. Should be an almost knife edge. Thats why you have to whack the
sprue plate to cut off the alloy in the sprue plate holes. Buckshot came up with a workable solution. Could use a counter sink to better refine the cutting edge.

The sprue actually cuts ok, but compared to the LBT, hah! The whacking is me trying to get the sprue to release from the danged sprue plate.

Also check the sprue plate for flatness.

Good there.

Didn't see the curved washer under the sprue plate screw, is there one?

Yes, there is a washer. Everything seems in order on the pivot screw.

And no set screw for locking the sprue plate screw?

I don't know if older 4 cav Lymans did. From closer inspection, it looks to be designed such that the screw has a stop so that the screw head locates to the depth of the sprue plate. The issue is that the sprue plate is too thick. It needs a touch more bevel for the corner to sneak by the screw.

Lyman's mold quality seems to have taken a down turn. I have a Lyman 311284 that went back to them because the nose portion was way undersize. They sorta kinda reamed it out as you can see a slight scraping on the nose. For a mold manufacturer that's been around for over a 100 years that's pitiful. The only lyman mold that casts where it's supposed to is the 314299 which was originally for the 303 british .303-.304 on the nose and .314 on the body which I shoot in a Finn model 27. Frank

[Taterhead]

Tater, this is a problem that goes much deeper than the mere fit and finish of this Lyman mould...not only is it drill bits that need sharpening and machines that need adjusting and jigs that need aligning, it's a lack of 'esprit de corps' within their organization.
Not only have the costs of manufacturing been rung out excessively but the application and management of the labor force has most likely seen the same coarse actions from above on the corporate floor where they specialize in lack of common sense solutions...where they pound round pegs into square holes to save a penny...dang the relations.
I've seen it happen to my customers several times...they start out a Ma & Paw business and run for a decade or so, employees and management alike have a keene sense of duty and responsibility to manufacture a top shelf product, people are proud of what they've accomplished together. Then one day for whatever reason...here comes a bean counter or a crew of them specializing in fine tuning a factory where they don't even understand the product going out the back door.
They look at and treat the employees as non human objects...see them as a mere cost that needs trimming...it goes on and on until the family of workers in that little manufacturing facility become unrecognizable to the fella like me who installed their first machines a decade ago.
One day I walk in to find a new plant engineer instead of the old cigar smoking gentleman who understood every heartbeat of the operation. Now I am dealing with a young graduate from some college or university that has never had dirty grimy hands, some new kid that has never spent a holiday weekend around the clock performing surgery on a plant that has to re-open and run on the following Monday morning and on time to boot . . . a new man that is filling the shoes of a man for 1/2 the cost of the old gentleman, and here it will begin.
I go into the bowels of the plant and find many new faces, faces without smiles wearing blank uncaring looks on their faces...then I realize that the bean counters have arrived.
Sometimes it is that the factory has been sold and the new owners are just 'streamlining' and sometimes it is actually needed for the company to grow and expand into the future...volumes could be written regarding this but the bottom line is that somewhere in the past they lost the original focus and purpose of making that product and the factory started to morph into some kind of hybrid 'AI' environment.
I like to call it Corporate Greed where the bottom line is more important and has the constant focus of the suits in management...and I like to refer to the corporate team of experts collectively as the bean counters as unfair as it may sound . . . for my perspective is from the factory floor where blood sweat and tears are invested and there are no suits and ties...just blue collar boys using good common sense, boys that used to be considered the backbone of any industry.

So...there's a 2¢ estimate at what's basically wrong with this particular mould...nothing personal against the professional bean counter.

I don't take that personally. Not at all.

I think that you and I are kind of saying the same thing, but from a different viewpoint. The people that ran a good business, and made a good product, that know the secret sauce -- one day they won't be in charge any more.

With poor succession planning, the new "leadership" doesn't understand that secret sauce, and eventually the bottle of rocket sauce empties. What we're really talking about is a change in company culture. A strong culture is unbelievably difficult to sustain because any time a single person joins the company or leaves the company, the culture unavoidably drifts somewhat. Compound that over 100 years, then eventually there is a company that's lost its way. Unrecognizable. No one has the know how to be successful. Does anyone at Lyman actually cast bullets?

You've described perfect examples of cultural drift, and that is a failure of cultural succession planning. A company with the right culture does not let the ill-informed make critical business decisions.

I do believe that some people are greedy. Sometimes greed is in play. Greed fails. Bad capitalists aim to cost-cut the way to profitability. They are foolish because it is a bad business model. Those businesses aren't making good profits over time. The best capitalists understand, like the fantastic company that I work for, that success comes from serving employees and customers and doing it better than the other guys. That's how you fill the bottle of rocket sauce. Spreadsheets can't do it. You know this, and good bean counters know this. So I think we agree.

[Taterhead]

Well, so far CS has been friendly and willing to work with me. As expected, the replacement hold down screw that they promptly mailed to me did not solve the problem. The lady on the phone was very attentive to my issue and issued an RMA. The mold is en route to CT, and I'm out $8 shipping and some inconvenience so far. I enclosed detailed issues for them to address. I also enclosed a little baggy of the little hockey puck castings that are left in the sprue plate holes. So it remains to be seen if the CS lives up [down] to the recent reputation. I'll let you know.

Hopefully I'll get a mold back that still casts with the same dimensions. This one was spot on and I like the profile!

[dogdoc]

I have a recent 429421 4 cavity mould that I like a lot. It drops about .431 with my alloy. I have some minor problems with the sprue plate screw as well but I just fix it with a little judicious filing, grinding. No big deal. These are iron moulds and quite inexpensive for what they are. Just compare to other makers for iron moulds. They are the toughest moulds out there as evidenced by all the really old ones still out there. A few minor tweaks was needed on a lot of moulds in the seventies and eighties as well. I think they are a good value.

[dogdoc]

Tater
You sent a mould back that cast good bullets to your desired spec for a sprue plate? I hope they send that mould back to you with just a new plate because if I have that cast to good spec, I want to keep it.