Reloading press accuracy , run out testing

[doulos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txJ2bfFqxSk

I dont know if any of you have seen this. I thought it was interesting. He compared a few different presses including the Forster Co-ax , Mec Marksman, an RCBS and a Lee.

here is another he did on press alignment.....also interesting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQAp-MT62Ag

I thought both were well done ...what do you think?

[tazman]

Watched the first one. The results were interesting in that all the presses gave nearly identical results when using the same dies. Less than .0002 difference between the lot of them.
Seems the manufacturers are making some great equipment these days.
Perhaps the best use of your money is to get really good seating dies.

[country gent]

I have thought about turning up a set of points one 7/8 14 threads and one with the bottom of a shell holder on it. Screw one point into die thread and snap the other into the ram and carefully raise. Small misalignment would be visible to the naked eye even better would be with some magnification. Would be like the scope ring alignment bars sinclairs sold.

The rough part of this is once you find out the press isn't in alignment. what do you do? Theoretically it could be set up in a mill or lathe and the threads bored out to bigger and a sleeve made to bring back to 7/8 14. This will be a major job setting up and getting right. Press will need to be stripped down a mandrel turned to fit rams bore snug and indicated in square in both axisis. THe the ress indicated in to the ram hole reaching thru the threaded hole to the ram bore. Then the threaded hole bored out 1/4" bigger and tapped to the fine thread. A bushing with this thread od and a under sized bore locktited in place. then alignment checked and this hole bored and threaded 7/8" 14. A lot of work to fix the problem.

The other route would be to set up in reverse and bore and bush ram bore to the die thread. This would be a much longer bore to cut. But with brass bushings it would be quickly rebuildable. Add a grease zerk here and the press would be improved.

Another place seldom checked is the actual ram it self. If bent or warped it will cause misalignment.

[jmorris]

The dies and components make more of a difference than what press you use.

[EDG]

All the press has to do is be straighter than the slop in the shell holder.
You could put a flat pusher in the ram and the alignment would mean very little. Wilson dies produce excellent results with no press threads or shell holders.

[RED BEAR]

Since there is play where the sell holder snaps into press and play where case goes into shell holder i just wonder how much this matters. Can you really tell the difference? I know that i can be a bit of a perfectionist it annoys the devil out of my wife. I have been using the same lee press for more than 40 years and a while back i did rebuild it made sure there was no play and everything was trued up. It took a bit of work to get everything lined up just so. For the life of me i still can't tell the difference. Everything was quite close to start with. I used to weigh every case every bullet every charge trimmed every case uniformed and deburred the flash holes everything had to be just so. Was asked one day by my nephew how much difference it made so i thought i would find out. Now i still weighed the charges but left out the rest and to my surprise i couldn't tell any difference. Now i am no bench rest shooter and i will not claim to be a good shot any more bad eyes and arthritis in hands. But i gave up needing everything to be just so and just enjoy my range time.

[doulos]

I thought the test was interesting. He tried hard to keep the variables down. And the MEC was the winner in his tests for run out. But they were all pretty good when good components were used.

[tazman]

The issue I have with tests such as this is they only tested one press of each brand. Who's to say that the next press they test might be much better or worse than the one next to it.
Test 10 otherwise identical presses and see how much difference there is. I doubt they will all be exactly the same.
Every manufacturer makes an occasional product that is poor in comparison to their best example.

[Petrol & Powder]

I have to agree with posts #4 & #5.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive loaded on many presses. From cheap lee hand presses to rock chuckers to co-axes to progressives of about every brand. Im not a bench rest shooter so .001 inch difference in groups size means nothing to me. that said ive never seen any of my guns do better because of the press I used to load ammo. Dies? Maybe. Components? Absolutely. I always kind of chuckled at the co-ax claims that it self centers. Basicaly saying a sloppy press is better then a tight one. Who knows?

[doulos]

I agree Tazman and Loyd. First Im sure there are manufacturing variables in presses from year to year and lot to lot. And I agree Loyd about the Co ax claims. The self alignment because the die floats does make sense. But the MEC accomplishes the same thing with a floating shell holder. And cheaper than the CoAx. Who knows is right. I just thought it was interesting because I had never seen anyone test presses like that,

[georgerkahn]

For my experience, perhaps maybe 30 years back I noted an inconstancy for a semi-auto handgun I had at the time's reloads. It turned out that -- I was using a Lyman 4-station All American Turret press -- the turret itself had, when the station being used had pressure on it, enough "wiggle" to make a several-thousandths variation -- again, enough to significantly affect my loads. My fix? I learned there's a screw I previously never new existed on underneath the turret, in rear opposite station being used, to tighten and minimize/eliminate this slop. Since, albeit that particular firearm's long gone, the up-down possible movement -- I noted a bit even in a "C" type press I had -- has been something I always try and keep an eye on.
YES -- a good seating die (complementing others) surely is a "plus" -- but, to my thinking, that there is as close to zero movement/variability in entire press while being operated is paramount for repeatability.
Just my two cents or so on the subject....
geo

[dragon813gt]

I find these tests interesting. But what does it mean to results on target? You’d have to have two of the same press w/ different run outs to test. And even then everything else would have to be equal die setup and component wise. I don’t think you’d find any difference on target. Unless the press so bad as to be almost unusable.

[doulos]

I find these tests interesting. But what does it mean to results on target? You’d have to have two of the same press w/ different run outs to test. And even then everything else would have to be equal die setup and component wise. I don’t think you’d find any difference on target. Unless the press so bad as to be almost unusable.

I would think a benchrest or long range shooter might see the difference. They seem to strive for the zero runout. I dont know if the average guy shooting groups at 100 yards would see the difference between .001 and .0007 runout. Im not sure.

[Dan Cash]

A lot of testing with some false assumptions built in. Author credits the Lee collet die with making case neck concentric with rest of the case by centering with flash hole. Flash holes are not always on center. As stated by others, the test only examines one press of a type/mfgr. so does not demonstrate overall propensity for run out and then, regardless the outcome of these tests, if the firing platform is not sufficient to benefit from the accuracy in ammo manufacture, what difference does it make, e.g. zero run out ammo fired in a well worn SKS?

[str8wal]

Interesting, but there are too many other variables to make this anything to worry about, IMO

[Three44s]

The dies you use and your technique are the things you can better control. The particular press less so.

For one thing the average person does not have the tools or the training to test their particular press and make no mistake, you could likely take ten presses of the same brand, model etc and get ten different results even if you measure them yourself.

I got a little concerned about my cheap little RCBS Jr. I bought back in 1975 because I felt some slop so I bought a Redding BOSS. I gained compound linkage in the process. Now I have little to tell that I gained much else but I think I gained something.

As far as dies I like the collet die from Lee. Not going to attribute better alignment on it but I did shrink groups with my 22-250 of that time to it. I measured it, I bank on it.

But as far as alignment issues I prefer the Hornady New Dimension seater die and one trick ........

The “trick” is in seating the bullet and what I learned from reading, then doing and measuring run out of loaded rounds and it involves just barely starting the bullet, partially withdrawing the ram, turning casing 45 to 60 degrees reinserting the cartridge and doing another mini-push just seating the bullet ever so little, withdrawing the ram and rotating the casing another 45 or 60 degrees and mini pushing the bullet slightly deeper once more. After about the third push or so I figure I have milked the process enough and go ahead and seat the bullet all the way to it’s intended seating depth.

I find that this works best with casings that are adequately beveled on the inside of it’s mouth and better still using a VLD tool.

I also find that pushing the bullet into the casing too far on each mini push tends to defeat the effect of seating bullets in better alignment. It is better to make the seating steps less deeply in the begining because if one is more aggressive from the get go, the casing neck has more grip on the not yet straight seated bullet yet.

I use a runout tool and measure the effects of my technique and am satisfied that my system works for me.

Proper credit should be attributed to Rick Jamison who used to write for Shooting Times in a regular feature about handloading. I learned this trick from his column many years ago.

Also note this applies to jacketed rifle bullets. I do not prescribe to hand gun loading or as of yet, cast boolit seating yet but that might change.

Three44s

[Fishoot]

You guys probably already know this, but here goes: For a casual shooter or hunter press alignment and bullet runout are not consequential. To shoot varmints at long range or to shoot competitively, a shooter wants the best (most consistent) loads that can be achieved. Eliminating variables can increase a competitor's confidence and contribute to better scores whether it's due to load consistency or increased confidence.

[mdi]

I very rarely watch any youtube videos on reloading. Some give me a headache with the camera wobbbling and jumping around. And then there's the guy that talks for 5 minutes and says nothing. But the biggest complaint is anyone can post a video and be an "expert" and I've seen Bubba doing some questionable things and once or twice some dangerous practices.

For experienced reloaders, those with their BS meters working correctly, these can be entertaining, but should be taken with a grain of Bullseye...

I have to admit there are some decent videos by component manufacturers or equipment manufacturers but they are outnumbered by the worthless videos...

[jmort]

Excellent video
It reaffirms, as noted above, that components are most critical and that a $100 Lee will do everything the CO AX or Rockchucker will do for a fraction of the price.
Hopefully this will lessen the hot air blowing around.