Charter Arms 44 special Bulldog a waste of money?

[DougGuy]

Elkins45 I think you did a LOT better with the 69. See what the throats are when you get it.

[cabezaverde]

Im just curious here everyone. The gun in question is a .44 special built from a 6 shot snub nose 38 special that the maker doesn't recommend to be used with 38 special +p ammunition.
Thus how does it manage to survive tossing 30-50% larger bullets at the same velocity at 38+p chamber pressure so well?

The Bulldogs are 5 shot.

[35remington]

At SAAMI prescribed pressure from a short barrel, 44 Specials using bullets in the vicinity of 240-250 grains really do not outrun 38 Special 158 grain loadings from similar barrel lengths. 44 Special is held to around 14,000 psi which is lower than standard pressure 38 Special. I do not know the other details of the revolver in question, but that is food for thought.

[umwminer]

I blew mine up 4 days ago

[Skipper]

I blew mine up 4 days ago

Pictures?

[Silvercreek Farmer]

I blew mine up 4 days ago

Hope you are okay. Care to share any details?

[umwminer]

I’m a technically challenged senior citizen that cant figgure out how to post picts on this great site but could text picts to interested parties .
It is a newer stainless snubby with the bbl shroud . Ive had it about 4 years and purchased it new.
I really liked it. I bobbed the hammer . It fit in a front or rear trouser pocket , coat pocket , stuffed mexican style in my waistband. No rust , no fuss and i shot hell out of it mostly with Skeeters “load”. It was a handful recoil wise but , for me the trade off for a set them on their *** carry piece was well worth it . My only real complaint about it before it turned into a bomb was that the trigger was “short” and would wear a hole on the bottom of my trigger finger while always shooting double action.
Anyways , i bought a new 4 cavity 200gr full wadcutter mold because i like full wadcutters for carry loads .
I loaded a series of 10rd test loads with unique , 4756 , 231, AA#5 , 2400 , and Universal Clays .
Bullets were cast of 50/50 WW & plumbers lead , sized .430 and lubed with homemade beeswax moly grease .
Someone else posted in this thread a reference to a Handloader article that stated that the Charter Bulldogs were rated for 22000psi . One of the loads recommended for guns in the 22000psi cat used a healthy dose of Universal with a 200gr Gold Dot .( Yes , I realize there are pressure deferentials between cast and jacketed boolits ).
I started 2 gr under the listed Universal load in the article and went up half a grain until i hit the
Listed load and stopped there .
First round out of the gun with the max listed Universal load blew the gun up .
A piece of the cyclinder went completly thru my double sided insulated garage door .
I havnt found the top strap yet .
Stupid ? Yep . Lucky ? Yep ( nary a scratch ).
Heavy diet of heavy loads for 4 years ? Yep . Too hot of a load ? Yep
I do not believe in attempting to turn .38 Specials into .357 magnums or 30-06’s into 300 weatherbys or .44Specials into .44 magnums . Was attempting to optimize this handy little pocket mamba for personal protection and lost .

[Silvercreek Farmer]

"Stupid ? Yep . Lucky ? Yep ( nary a scratch ).
Heavy diet of heavy loads for 4 years ? Yep . Too hot of a load ? Yep"

This says it all. Glad you are okay. Thank you for sharing the details! An honest call to Charter may yield dividends.

[richhodg66]

Was in a LGS today and looked at one they make now, stainless, had probably a two inch barrel chambered in .45 ACP and set up so it didn't need a moon clip to extract. I liked it, and the .45 ACP has a lot more real man stopper factory loadings out there than the .44 Special it seems. Might have to look into getting one of those.

[Forrest r]

Too bad, glad you're ok.
[IMG][/IMG]

When I'm not sure about a bullet I look at a known bullet to see how much of that bullet is seated in the case. Case capacity & pressure go hand in hand.

I've showed this picture before:
[IMG][/IMG]

Those loads seem hot but the reality is pearce did another 44spl article in the feb 2018 #312 handloader magazine. He tested the lyman 429215 in that article. His "MAX" 2400 load was 18.0gr with that bullet. The 2005/#236 pearce article has the lyman 429421 bullet using 16.0gr of 2400 "MAX" load.

The bottom 2 bullets in the picture above are a full 2.0gr under the max 22,000psi pearce load.
The top 2 bullets are 1/2gr under the max 22,000psi pearce load. But the top left bullet is the hb version that has been hp'd/30+gr lighter. & the top right bullet is 25gr lighter and does not seat as deep as pearce's 429421 bullet. The nra testing of that 429422/16.0gr of 2400 put that load in the +/- 17,000psi range.

Actually all those loads should be in the +/- 17,000psi range. I've owned bulldogs since the 80's & never loaded max loads in them. Back when the hodgdon #25 data manual came out (1986) it had max loads as high as 18,600cup listed for the 44spl using h4227. Their lead bullet data/choices was even better, 215gr gc ='s 16.0gr of h110/14,800cup. Or 250gr gc/16.0gr of h110/13,200cup. Hercules manuals back then had data showing 16.0gr of 2400 with lighter bullets in their reloading data/under max saami specs (15,500psi). 16.0gr seemed to be the #.

Since the 80's I've always done 2 things with working up loads in the ca bulldogs. Namely used lighter bullets and used known seating depths/case capacities. Used 15.0gr to 16.0gr of 2400.

Personally I have yet to go beyond MAX standard pressure 44spl listed loads with any powder that burns faster than 2400 in the ca bulldogs. This is the 2nd post in the last +/- 3 years of someone grenading a bulldog. Universal clays & bluedot

I'm glad no one got hurt, be careful.

[umwminer]

Thanks for the kind words and info .

[FergusonTO35]

Too bad, glad you're ok.
[IMG][/IMG]

When I'm not sure about a bullet I look at a known bullet to see how much of that bullet is seated in the case. Case capacity & pressure go hand in hand.

I've showed this picture before:
[IMG][/IMG]

Those loads seem hot but the reality is pearce did another 44spl article in the feb 2018 #312 handloader magazine. He tested the lyman 429215 in that article. His "MAX" 2400 load was 18.0gr with that bullet. The 2005/#236 pearce article has the lyman 429421 bullet using 16.0gr of 2400 "MAX" load.

The bottom 2 bullets in the picture above are a full 2.0gr under the max 22,000psi pearce load.
The top 2 bullets are 1/2gr under the max 22,000psi pearce load. But the top left bullet is the hb version that has been hp'd/30+gr lighter. & the top right bullet is 25gr lighter and does not seat as deep as pearce's 429421 bullet. The nra testing of that 429422/16.0gr of 2400 put that load in the +/- 17,000psi range.

Actually all those loads should be in the +/- 17,000psi range. I've owned bulldogs since the 80's & never loaded max loads in them. Back when the hodgdon #25 data manual came out (1986) it had max loads as high as 18,600cup listed for the 44spl using h4227. Their lead bullet data/choices was even better, 215gr gc ='s 16.0gr of h110/14,800cup. Or 250gr gc/16.0gr of h110/13,200cup. Hercules manuals back then had data showing 16.0gr of 2400 with lighter bullets in their reloading data/under max saami specs (15,500psi). 16.0gr seemed to be the #.

Since the 80's I've always done 2 things with working up loads in the ca bulldogs. Namely used lighter bullets and used known seating depths/case capacities. Used 15.0gr to 16.0gr of 2400.

Personally I have yet to go beyond MAX standard pressure 44spl listed loads with any powder that burns faster than 2400 in the ca bulldogs. This is the 2nd post in the last +/- 3 years of someone grenading a bulldog. Universal clays & bluedot

I'm glad no one got hurt, be careful.

The graphics shown in your post illustrate my current project for making more efficient .38 Special loads. I find that standard SWC's loaded into Starline .38 Long Colt brass have about the same powder capacity as a .38 Special loaded with a full wadcutter. So, I'm loading regular SWC's into the .38 LC using .38 Special full wadcutter data. Results so far are quite promising, and no loss of accuracy or undue fouling noted shooting them in my S&W 637. As an added bonus, the shorter OAL is faster and easier to load.

[CJR]

Since we're talking 44 Special loads and maximum pressures. I have a comment concerning Brian Pearce's comments, in his 44 S&W Special article, on the Skeeter Skeleton load of 7.5 grains of Unique behind the Lyman 429421 cast bullet. Brian Pearce categorizes this load, in his article, as a 22,000 psi load. However, in the NRA Handloaders Guide, article entitled "Loads for the .44 S&W Special" on page 280, there are two(2) listings for the Lyman 429421 cast bullet with 7.5 grains of Unique powder. The NRA MEASURED pressures were; 10, 940 psi and 11,250 psi. I don't know where Brian Pearce got 22,000 psi from, but according to the NRA testing this Lyman 429421 cast bullet with 7.5 grains of Unique powder is well within the normal pressures for the 44 S&W Special. Likewise, though the older version of Unique powder was re-formulated, for cleaner burning, I find it very hard to believe that the newest cleaner-burning version of Unique DOUBLED THE PRESSURE to 22,000 psi.

Best regards,

CJR

[dogdoc]

NRA guide is very old . Perhaps measuring techniques are better. As far as that gun blowup, a full wad cutter seats much deeper and seating depth can have a huge affect on pressure. Saw a 40 S&W grenade at match from a likely deep seat.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[CJR]

dogdoc

As far as I know, ALL of the ballistic pressure testing for the NRA was done by the H.P. White Laboratory in Bel Air, MD. Granted there may be some improvements in pressure testing over the years, i.e. piezoelectric crystals, etc., but we're talking about a difference in pressure in this load between 10,940 psi/11,250 psi and 22,000 psi! In essence, the inference is that the error in pressure measurement, by H.P. White Laboratory, was essentially 50%. Or putting it another way, the NRA's tested pressures should have been 200% higher! I find that hard to believe!

I question where Brian Pearce got that 22,000 psi pressure level from, i.e. for the 44 Special load of 7.5 grains Unique behind a Lyman 429421 cast bullet. Specifically, who was the testing laboratory that pressure tested that load for Mr. Pearce? Likewise it is common practice, in scientific literature, to cite what laboratories were used to perform all scientific testing. If the testing sources are not cited, the results are suspect/questionable.

Best regards,

CJR

[35remington]

By any logical understanding, the NRA measured pressures for that load are way too low and are in error. Much of the angst printed here should be directed at the NRA’s pressure numbers.

[dogdoc]

Yea, I suspect those old nra numbers are in error but that does not mean that is not a safe load. You can take handloader and Brian Pearce’s info to bank most of the time although anybody can make a mistake. I have shot a ton of 7.5 unique with 250 Keith with no problems. I favor 8 grains of power pistol with that bullet now.

[CJR]

35 Remington,

We are not talking logic here. What we're talking about here is laboratory testing of the loads cited by Brian Pearce. In other words, factual pressure testing of loads rather than logical assumptions on what the pressures are.

Best regards,

CJR

[35remington]

Pearce’s numbers are closer than the NRA’s are.

Logic says the NRA’s number are way off. I suggest applying that here. Erroneous figures given by the NRA testing are the problem.

The NRA numbers have little to do with fact or accuracy. The mistake is in assuming the NRA figures are valid. They are not. Your beef is more with the NRA than Pearce. You just haven’t got there yet.

[dogdoc]

I think Pearce has most of his loads pressure tested. He sometimes makes reference to it.