Alliant Bullseye in Win. 1873

[rhill]

I read an article by Paco Kelly and he states that Bullseye has a pressure curve with a fast spike that is hard on the 1873's, even though one may load the cartridge with low peak pressure. This man knows more than I, but was wondering what you all think about this. My gun is a 1873 reproduction, in .45 Colt. I know Bullseye is not the best powder for the old cartridge, but I have a couple pounds I would like to use up. I normally use 8gr. of Unique with a 255gr. boolit. If I have to I will use it up in .38's, but I already have a couple thousand rounds of that loaded. I was hoping to use the Bullseye in light to med. loads in the .45. Any input appreciated!!

[Ninety Caliber]

I’m a Cowboy Action Shooter for the last 9 years and have shot bullseye in my .38 ‘73. Load a 158 gr. rnfp over 3.2 grains. About 800 FPS in a 4 “ revolver. Been no problem in my ‘73. Have no experience with 45 colt, but cant imagine it would be a problem. Hope this helps.


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[Outpost75]

In .44-40 with 200-grain lead bullet 6 grains of Bullseye is a safe load for the 1873. Do not exceed.

In the .45 Schofield 4.5 grains with 230-grain bullet approximates the service load velocity.

In the .45 Colt 6.5 grains with 255-grain lead bullet approximates factory velocity and is a safe load.

[LIMPINGJ]

Maybe Outpost or Larry can answer this but I have read that Bullseye was used in early smokeless factory loads for the 45 Colt, was it used in the 44-40 also? If the factories used Bullseye in it that should answer if the factories thought Bullseye was ok in a 73.

[Outpost75]

Maybe Outpost or Larry can answer this but I have read that Bullseye was used in early smokeless factory loads for the 45 Colt, was it used in the 44-40 also? If the factories used Bullseye in it that should answer if the factories thought Bullseye was ok in a 73.

Bullseye was used for factory loads in the .32 ACP, .32 S&W Long, .38 S&W, .38 Special, .44 Rusian, .44 Special, .45 ACP and .45 Colt.

Charge in the .32 ACP, .32 S&W Long and .38 S&W was 2.5 grains
Charge in the .38 Special was 2.7 grains for 148 wadcutter and 3.5 grains for 158 LRN
Charge in the .44 Russian was 4 grains
Charge in the .44 Special was 4.5 grains
Charge in the .45 ACP was 5 grains
Charge in the .45 Colt was 6.5 grains

(Source, Hatcher, Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers, 1935).

Smokeless .44-40s pre WW2 which I have pulled down for inspection all used used Hercules Sharpshooter powder, which I was told by John Kort was fairly close to modern RL7.

[Baltimoreed]

I also have a large amount of Bullseye that I picked up during the drought a few years ago. I just broke into it and use 4.0 gr with a 200 rnfp or a 265 gr pointed hollow base bullet in my Webleys. I use either .45acp, .45 autorim or .455/.450 Webley brass. A good light target load. Sounds like you have a good excuse to buy a nice Colt 1911 to reload for to use up all that old Bullseye.

[sghart3578]

When I had a 45 Colt lever gun I shot 200gr and 255 gr Lee RF over 6.5 gr of Bullseye. Both were very accurate and easy on the shoulder.

I started using this load in my Vaquero for my grandson to shoot.

[EDG]

Peak pressure is just peak pressure. Steel does not really care how fast unless you want to count the number of cycles that will cause fatigue failure. A good design engineer keeps the stress forces on a design below the endurance limit of the steel.
That is why the connecting rods of properly driven and maintained auto engines can go 250K miles.

[georgerkahn]

I, too, have and do use Bullseye in my cast bullet lever gun loadings! And, I never have had a problem. HOWEVER, at a not-too-distant range, *TWO* beautiful rifles -- one a pristine 1892 in .38WCF -- were blown up by a reloader/shooter who, using Bullseye, apparently double- or triple- (???) charged his cases. The 2nd rifle was a Model 36 Marlin (predated the 336) -- same probable cause.
In the many readings I've done re reloading, the point is oft made to -- when possible -- use a powder which at least fills your case 1/2-way. The obvious purpose is to present accidental double-charging.
Again, I've been lucky, as well as a tad OCD -- e.g., I take the extras step of putting primed empty case on my D-Terminator scale, set to zero, before -- and then after -- dropping in the powder (Harrels powder measure). I have a plus or minus 0.2 grain criteria, and upon meeting this, a bullet is immediately seated. While most all loading for pistol is done on progressive press, I load most all rifle using single-stage or turret presses which readily afford this extra step.
In any case, imho, double charging powder is the only thing which might worry me using Bullseye in lever, as well as all other rifle, loads.
geo

[Outpost75]

I also have a large amount of Bullseye that I picked up during the drought a few years ago. I just broke into it and use 4.0 gr with a 200 rnfp or a 265 gr pointed hollow base bullet in my Webleys. I use either .45acp, .45 autorim or .455/.450 Webley brass. A good light target load. Sounds like you have a good excuse to buy a nice Colt 1911 to reload for to use up all that old Bullseye.

Loading 4 grains of Bullseye in the shaved Webley .45 ACP is OK with up to a 230-grain lead bullet, but is a bit "warm" for the 265-grainers. When Larry Gibson ran pressure tests for me, we both determined that 3.5 grains was much safer and satisfactory with the heavier bullets.

[Larry Gibson]

While I respect a lot of what Paco has to say and find he is most often correct in this instance (the use of Bullseye in M1873 lever actions) he is incorrect.

The term "spike" is incorrectly used also. "Spike" in reference to the time/pressure curve (trace) is an abnormality in the curve. It is not the peak pressure reached in a normal loads time/pressure curve. It refers to a pressure spike out of the ordinary. Most often the term is used to describe an abnormally high pressure but I have also observed "spikes" that occur late in the time/pressure curve that do not exceed the peak pressure reached. Obviously Paco was making assumptions back then and was not versed in what the actual time pressure curves of BP loads look like compared to faster burning smokeless loads in the same cartridge. The time pressure curves are very similar. The M1873 does not know the difference.

In my own 45 Colt Uberti SAAs and M1873 carbine I use 7.2 gr of Bullseye or 7 gr of 700X under 195 - 205 gr cast bullets as my standard loads. I have pressure tested both loads and they average right at the SAAMI MAP of 14,000 psi for the 45 Colt.

[swheeler]

typo-M1873

Larry it's heck gettin' old isn't it!

[kaiser]

I prefer to use powder that comes closer to filling the .45 Colt case, which Bullseye does not. Put a 6.0gr load of it in a case and shoot your 1873 rifle from "high port" to "muzzle down" and see what your chronograph registers between the extremes; there is quite a difference in velocity! The possibility of "double charging" is the main reason I don't normally use it, where using it in .38 Special and .45ACP case presents less of a problem (never had pressure problem, though, with "published" loads). I did try using the shorter .45 Schofield brass in my .45 Colt firearms to mitigate this problem; however, it worked fine in my 1873 Colt (clone) pistol, but would not feed in my 1873 rifle. I had the same problem with using small charges of Red Dot, and I have about 8# of that powder. I don't like to waste powder, but have found other uses for it other than in my .45 Colts. As Mr. Gibson has pointed out, pressure is not the problem and if it gives you good accuracy; and are careful, there is no reason not to use it. (I have noticed that "Spike" gets blamed a lot for mistakes made in reloading procedures or chamber dimensions, even by some of the best of "experts"!)

[rhill]

Thanks for all the great input, especially Larry for the education on pressure. Will try the Bullseye and check each case for proper powder fill. My preferred powder is Unique, but also going to try Titegroup and see how that goes. Thanks again everyone!

[Walks]

I shifted over to TiteGroup from Bullseye for .38spl & Unique in .44spl/.44WCF for Cowboy Action Shooting as soon as it came out in 1992, I believe.

The Hodgdon Rep gave me a pound to try. Said it was more resistant to temperature changes and position in the case.

I've never liked BULLSEYE in big cases. Nothing bigger then .44spl w/Lyman#429251gr or in .45ACP/AR.

I don't know about pressure spikes, never felt a difference. But the position thing. I learned a difference shooting .38spl HBWC over 2.8grs of Bullseye.
I would fire a shot and lower the barrel down to the edge of the bench, a 45degree angle. Then raise the revolver to parallel (90degrees). Leaving the powder up against the bullets base. My groups opened up. When I raised the muzzle straight up, the group's shrank down.

I tried the same experiment with a TiteGroup equivalent load. No change in group size, regardless of muzzle position before firing.

I still use Clays for my .45 Colt Cowboy Action Loads. A Ioad was suggested to me just when Clays came out, about 1990. It turned out to be so accurate that I never tried another .45 Colt Load. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I just never liked Bullseye for .45 Colt, long before I started Cowboy Action Shooting in 1988.

I shot some OLD .45 Colt loads that I had loaded when I was out of Unique once, only had Bullseye. And planned to go shooting the next day. Didn't go. Shoved the loads to the back of the ammo shelves.
Found them 25yrs later. Lyman#454190 over 6.5grs of Bullseye, shot them in a COLT 4 3/4", Vaquero 7 1/2", Uberti 1866 19" & a Marlin 1894CB 24".

All 200rds shot fine, no unburned powder, hit about every soda can & steel plate. A good days plinking.

But I don't think I'll switch .45 Colt over to Bullseye. Unless I run out of every other light to medium pistol powder I have.

TiteGroup is Great.
But ya gotta clean ALL TiteGroup powder out of your powder hopper AS SOON AS YOU ARE DONE LOADING.

It is VERY CORROSIVE to plastic.

I mean CLEAN Immediately.

Only drawback to TiteGroup.

Good Luck

[tazman]

I have heard that Titegroup will corrode plastic but have never experienced it. I have left it in Lee powder measures and never had an issue yet. Probably, Lee uses a different type of plastic.
I have never used it in my RCBS measure.
Titegroup does burn a bit hotter than some other pistol powders. My handguns seem to get hot quicker with Titegroup than any other powder I use. It hasn't been a problem though.
Accuracy with it is superb.