Modifying A REAL Mold

[rodwha]

I’ve seen people state that a mold can be worked on to slightly enlarge driving bands and such. I’ve measured a couple of my heavier .50 cal REALs and see they seem to drop around 0.517”. Lyman states my grooves run about 0.520” and I’ve seen that if I don’t use a felt wad they will keyhole at 50 yds.

So I’d prefer to get a better groove fill, but then I’ve also been warned that the REAL has come off of the powder charge without having had the barrel tipped downward. I bought these REAL molds as I understood that being engraved into the rifling held them in place.

So I’d like to understand how people are modifying the driving bands on molds and how they are ensuring that the modification is uniform.

As an aside I’d like to hear of people’s experiences with this bullet and others (not undersized projectiles such as the Minie) on sliding off of the powder charge or not.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Use a harder lead if you want to to stick better in the bore. A stickier beeswax lube probably would help as well.

What rifle are you shoot? I lyman/investarms are a plain Witch to get conicals to work in due to their inconsistent bore size.

[JBinMN]

This first method in the link below would likely help get the REAL boolit a bit larger & you could try it, before trying to modify the mold permanently:

"Beagling" by John Goins aka "Beagle"
http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/MoldMods/BDE.pdf

This one by "Wiljen", and additional info by "Beagle":
http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/Mol...umentation.pdf

Even more, but permanent "mods" by "Ben":
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...Lementing-quot

I have done the first one, "beagling" & it has worked well for me so far. Have not yet needed to do any "permanent" ones on any of my molds.

G'Luck! on your efforts & I hope I was able to help out a bit.

[rodwha]

Use a harder lead if you want to to stick better in the bore. A stickier beeswax lube probably would help as well.

What rifle are you shoot? I lyman/investarms are a plain Witch to get conicals to work in due to their inconsistent bore size.

I’ve been considering buying Rotometals 2% tin as I have a hard time with fill on my cap n ball bullets. My Lee pot is set at the highest setting and I always drop the first dozen or so castings back in the pot so I doubt it’s the mold not being hit enough.

I have a Lyman Deerstalker blued model with the deeper grooves.

[rodwha]

This first method in the link below would likely help get the REAL boolit a bit larger & you could try it, before trying to modify the mold permanently:

"Beagling" by John Goins aka "Beagle"
http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/MoldMods/BDE.pdf

This one by "Wiljen", and additional info by "Beagle":
http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/Mol...umentation.pdf

Even more, but permanent "mods" by "Ben":
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...Lementing-quot

I have done the first one, "beagling" & it has worked well for me so far. Have not yet needed to do any "permanent" ones on any of my molds.

G'Luck! on your efforts & I hope I was able to help out a bit.

I read most of the article from the first link. From what I understand “beagling” is adding foil tape used in HVAC to create a slight gap to increase the diameter, right? If so this is excellent as I was an HVAC guy and have plenty of foil tape!

One question would be if I ever wanted to remove it. Is it difficult?

[JBinMN]

I read most of the article from the first link. If so this is excellent as I was an HVAC guy and have plenty of foil tape! From what I understand “beagling” is adding foil tape used in HVAC to create a slight gap to increase the diameter, right?

One question would be if I ever wanted to remove it. Is it difficult?

First question about the foil tape.

From what I understand “beagling” is adding foil tape used in HVAC to create a slight gap to increase the diameter, right?

Yes, it increases the diameter, but only on the mold face sides of the boolit. The sides inline with the handles remains the same. You get a slightly larger,& slightly oblong boolit. That mostly will not matter as if you "size" the boolits in a sizer die it should kind of "squeeze" the boolit into round. If you just load as cast, then any "sizing" or swaging will be done by the barrel with the same result of the boolit adapting to the barrel shape. The amount of that will also depend on alloy hardness, but using pure lead or a soft alloy, it should work fine.
At least to try it out to see how they work for ya.

Second question:

One question would be if I ever wanted to remove it. Is it difficult?

I have not yet tried to remove it, so I cannot answer definitely about that. I do think it should be relatively easy to remove. At least, maybe using a razor blade carefully, one should be able to work it off, not unlike removing a sticker or a bumper sticker off a car. For cleanup, one could try & use solvents like brake cleaner, carb cleaner, or even that "Goop" stuff, or "Goo-B-Gone" stuff. Keep in mind if you do remove it & all, you would likely have to smoke or 'prep' your mold for the surfaces affected again.

If you decide to do some of the other "mods", like spinning a boolit with some abrasive substance, obviously the mods will be permanent.

That is why I try to suggest trying the "beagling" with the tape first, to see if that was enough. Then maybe go to the permanent mods, unless someone else pops in here with better ideas.

Anyway,
G'Luck! in your efforts, once again, and hope I helped ya a bit!

[JBinMN]

BTW, I am also following this topic for personal reasons, as well as seeing other replies, as I have not yet committed to the REAL boolits in my "smokepole" yet.
I have been using the 250gr. jacketed with plastic sabot thus far & get outstanding accuracy. I want to use cast though & the REAL boolit is top of the list, before other projectile types, like ball.

So, I am hoping to see other posts on this just like you are.


Please make sure to return & update on your progress, so all of us can learn what happens(ed).

[rodwha]

Sizing of a REAL isn’t possible really as the driving bands below the top are under bore size. I’m wondering if having identical minor “imperfections” opposite each other would have much of an impact on accuracy. Seems they’d potentially counterbalance each other.

Is this rifle you are using a shallow grooved rifle? If so I’m wondering how hard it would be to seat a REAL with those larger bands. And if not a shallow groove barrel are you sealing the grooves with something?

I’m also curious about plastic residue. I often hear this. I’ve pondered sabots and either resized cal n ball bullets I cast or aerodynamic bullets that can extend range and buck wind a bit better. I’ve also wondered about a cardboard over powder card that in theory could/would scrape and plastic on its way out. But I’m uncertain as to how exactly a sabot works as they seem to have a hollow base.

[Rick Hodges]

How about "bumping" the REAL to gain a bit of diameter? A flat base and a punch to match the point...experiment and cut a steel stop the length that you need for the right diameter. Sorry just thinking out loud.

[megasupermagnum]

I've been wondering something similar. Cast of SOWW, mine load too easy. I've tried the 320 grian 50 cal in one gun, and the 380 grain 54 cal in two. All three are Thompson center guns. I see reports where people claim they load hard, they must have extremely tight bores. In all cases, the bottom band is a good bore diameter fit, the next band I easily start with my thumb. Then I start it the rest of the way with my short starter. At that point I could ram it down with one finger. I am 100% positive I am getting as good of fill out as is possible. Bands are sharp, the top being .517" as it should be, I forget what the 54 caliber measures. I've been thinking of thinking of trying some with a 20:1 alloy. I just don't know if it will bump up to fit or not. Only one way to know for sure.

[taco650]

BTW, I am also following this topic for personal reasons, as well as seeing other replies, as I have not yet committed to the REAL boolits in my "smokepole" yet.
I have been using the 250gr. jacketed with plastic sabot thus far & get outstanding accuracy. I want to use cast though & the REAL boolit is top of the list, before other projectile types, like ball.

So, I am hoping to see other posts on this just like you are.


Please make sure to return & update on your progress, so all of us can learn what happens(ed).

Ditto.

I've pondered this as well. Both of my rifles have slow twist barrels so I'm mostly interested in how the smaller one performs.

[RogerDat]

Blow dryer can be a big help in softening adhesive. WD-40 is very good at removing many adhesives. Just thought I would toss those out for removing the HVAC tape. Doubt heat from blow dryer would be as effective for that type of tape. But WD-40 has been a reliable standby for adhesive removal.

Thin steel wire to "cheese slice" the bond between the mold face and tape outer surface can also be useful approach. Used to remove VHB (very high bond) 3M tape.

[JBinMN]

Sizing of a REAL isn’t possible really as the driving bands below the top are under bore size. I’m wondering if having identical minor “imperfections” opposite each other would have much of an impact on accuracy. Seems they’d potentially counterbalance each other.

Well, since this is a muzzle loader, you are kind of "sizing"/"swaging" when you ram the boolit in with a ramrod to seat it & I think that would do part of the job. The other part being as it comes out under a lot more pressure when fired. Seems to me it is going to be a thing to test , unless someone comes along & tells us all more about doing it.

Is this rifle you are using a shallow grooved rifle? If so I’m wondering how hard it would be to seat a REAL with those larger bands. And if not a shallow groove barrel are you sealing the grooves with something?

The muxxleloader I am using is a T/C Omega, and as far as I am concerned they are shallow grooved. I do not know about the REAL seating yet, as I have not yet tied it, but I think it may be easier to seat with wider shallow grooves than with narrow deeper grooves.

I’m also curious about plastic residue. I often hear this. I’ve pondered sabots and either resized cal n ball bullets I cast or aerodynamic bullets that can extend range and buck wind a bit better. I’ve also wondered about a cardboard over powder card that in theory could/would scrape and plastic on its way out. But I’m uncertain as to how exactly a sabot works as they seem to have a hollow base.

The sabot has a cup & I pre-lube the cup with a "dab" of "bore butter" lube that I got back when I got this muzzleloader over 10 years ago. What I think happens is that the sabot base expands to seat the bore once the powder goes off & seals the bore, and the heat and combined friction of the plastic & the steel lands & grooves complements the base expansion to also help seal the bore & sabot surfaces. The sabot then conforms to the lands & grooves & imparts the twist of the rifle to the bullet that is cradled in the sabot & once the pair leave the muzzle the sabot is like a shotgun wad with petals( sabot has petals too) and leave the bullet, but the spin imparted to the sabot is transferred to the bullet & so it spins on its way to the target.

I am not sure of others doings, but I fire a primer alone into the barrel before I add the powder or pellets to "foul" the bore & the sabot/bullet is not easy to ram home even without the fouling, so the sabot is "engraving" a bit as it gets rammed home, and then the heat from the firing in addition to expanding the sabot, melts the lube & that follows the sabot and helps fill any imperfections that might be there to help seal the barrel/sabot & lube the barrel for the next projectile to be loaded next. I have not made it a habit to swab the bore between shots, but I usually only fire about 3-5 shots prior to a hunt & then usually only one shot is needed to take the deer. although I have had misfires before, I have not had a miss due to fouling yet. I reckon that if I were to fire more than what I do, I would possibly need to swab the bore on occasion, but I use my muzzle loader for hunting up to this point.

One of the reasons I want to move on to something other than the sabot/bullet is so I can shoot more using my own boolit, as the sabots & bullets together in a package cost way more than just sabots alone & my own boolits, or even REAL boolits without sabots, RB & wad, etc..

One more thing is to answer about the plastic fouling. Yes, it occurs, and although it happens in shotguns, I think it is more pronounced in muzzle loaders due to the rifling in the muzzle loader barrel add what I think is higher pressures, while the rifling in a rifled shotgun is likely less likely at those shotgun pressures to take plastic off, so not as much will foul the barrel. (< just a guess/conjecture. Others will have to verify. I do not know as I only own about 7-8 smooth bores & no rifled bore shotguns))

From the Lyman Black Powder Handbook, 2nd Edition, p.p. 171-172: 13,500 PSI, 15,400 PSI, 15,100 PSI, 16,800 PSI, 22,600 PSI, and 23,400 PSI. That is a spread from 13,500 PSI to 23,400 PSI, with one load developing over 73% more pressure than the other. So far, so what? It just looks like a bunch of numbers, and so it is.

However, all these pressures came from the SAME .50 caliber 22 inch 1-24 rate of twist test barrel. All these pressures were developed using the SAME 240 grain Hornady saboted bullet. All these pressures were developed using the SAME 100 grains volumetric measured charge of black powder or a black powder substitute.

Source:https://www.chuckhawks.com/muzzleloading_pressure.htm

Anyway, it seems as though when a smoothbore shotgun is shot, I see less plastic fouling from wads than the fouling I encounter from sabots in my muzzleloader. Still enough though to leave "some" plastic on occasion & it will build up as more shots are fired I am pretty sure.

As far as aerodynamic, bucking wind, etc., the bullet inside the sabot is protected by the sabot & does not have any obturation, rifling engraving or anything to change it's shape once it leaves the barrel & AFAIK is just in the same condition as when it was put in the sabot until it hits something. So I would say it is likely more "aerodynamic" thru out its path from ignition to target.

As far as scraping the plastic & fouling with a card, that is beyond any thing I would have experienced & although sounds like a good idea, I have not ever thought about it before & that is a question you will have to ask some of the others, as well as if my thoughts here are not consistent with others who have more experience than I, in muzzleloading and such things as you are asking.

All I can do is tell you what "I" think about some of the things I have experienced, figured out, or just thought about without yet verifying(conjecture).


Once again, G'Luck!

[JBinMN]

Blow dryer can be a big help in softening adhesive. WD-40 is very good at removing many adhesives. Just thought I would toss those out for removing the HVAC tape. Doubt heat from blow dryer would be as effective for that type of tape. But WD-40 has been a reliable standby for adhesive removal.

Thin steel wire to "cheese slice" the bond between the mold face and tape outer surface can also be useful approach. Used to remove VHB (very high bond) 3M tape.

After being subjected to the heat of the mold and staying on/not falling off, I am not so sure a heat gun would help either, but perhaps it would. One would have to try & actually "want" to remove it for some reason.

{As I said earlier, I have molds with the tape & none have fallen off yet from casting & I have not tried to remove as I "want" them left on for the calibers I am casting for.}

Same goes for the WD40. It would likely work as well, but without trying to remove some, I would not know. Good suggestion I would think though.

[JBinMN]

How about "bumping" the REAL to gain a bit of diameter? A flat base and a punch to match the point...experiment and cut a steel stop the length that you need for the right diameter. Sorry just thinking out loud.

I think that is one of the options I would try also. It sure seems like it would work , as well as it follows the KISS model of ding things, just like the beagling & if it doesn't work well, then it doesn't change anything but the boolits ya do it too.

Good suggestion as well, IMO!

[JBinMN]

I've been wondering something similar. Cast of SOWW, mine load too easy. I've tried the 320 grian 50 cal in one gun, and the 380 grain 54 cal in two. All three are Thompson center guns. I see reports where people claim they load hard, they must have extremely tight bores. In all cases, the bottom band is a good bore diameter fit, the next band I easily start with my thumb. Then I start it the rest of the way with my short starter. At that point I could ram it down with one finger. I am 100% positive I am getting as good of fill out as is possible. Bands are sharp, the top being .517" as it should be, I forget what the 54 caliber measures. I've been thinking of thinking of trying some with a 20:1 alloy. I just don't know if it will bump up to fit or not. Only one way to know for sure.

Moving up a bit in BHN with the 40:1 and then 30:1 first might be a better idea, and you can use one to make the next harder one, rather than jumping up to 20:1 then maybe having to work back down again if the 20:1 ends up not working for ya. Up to you though.

Common Bullet Alloy Hardness

Alloy BHN

Lead 5
WW (stick on) 6
Tin 7
1 to 40 tin lead 8
1 to 30 tin lead 9
1 to 20 tin lead 10
1 to 10 tin lead 11
WW (clip on) 12
Lead Shot* 13
Lyman # 2 15
Water quenched WW 18
Linotype 18 - 19
Monotype 25 - 27
Oven heat treated WW 30 - 32
Antimony 50

*Tip: Lead shot has .5 to 1.0% arsenic (As) (depending on the manufacturer) and can be used as a hardening agent when heat treating lead/antimony alloys. 1/4 of 1% arsenic is all it takes. Adding any more than this adds nothing & will not further harden the alloy. Additional hardening can be achieved by heat treating when arsenic is present to approximately 30 to 32 BHN.

[rodwha]

How about "bumping" the REAL to gain a bit of diameter? A flat base and a punch to match the point...experiment and cut a steel stop the length that you need for the right diameter. Sorry just thinking out loud.

Would you please explain “bumping” to me?

[rodwha]

I've been wondering something similar. Cast of SOWW, mine load too easy. I've tried the 320 grian 50 cal in one gun, and the 380 grain 54 cal in two. All three are Thompson center guns. I see reports where people claim they load hard, they must have extremely tight bores. In all cases, the bottom band is a good bore diameter fit, the next band I easily start with my thumb. Then I start it the rest of the way with my short starter. At that point I could ram it down with one finger. I am 100% positive I am getting as good of fill out as is possible. Bands are sharp, the top being .517" as it should be, I forget what the 54 caliber measures. I've been thinking of thinking of trying some with a 20:1 alloy. I just don't know if it will bump up to fit or not. Only one way to know for sure.

Your experience loading seems much like mine. Doesn’t take a whole lot to get it down and once in its easy to seat.

However I’m lost on the SO part of SOWW. I understand WW to mean Wheel Weight, but am lost on the prefix portion.

[rodwha]

Ditto.

I've pondered this as well. Both of my rifles have slow twist barrels so I'm mostly interested in how the smaller one performs.

A fellow was taking his father elk hunting with a slow twist .50 cal. I sent the 250 grn REALs I was given from the fellow on this forum who I bought the mold from. He didn’t have good enough results. However only he knows how much development he put into it. The shorter REAL isn’t that much longer than the ball. Ok, maybe a bit, but nothing extreme like the many other options. I’d assume a load could be developed for a slow twist, and maybe that also depends on how slow the twist is and the powder charge used.

[rodwha]

Well, since this is a muzzle loader, you are kind of "sizing"/"swaging" when you ram the boolit in with a ramrod to seat it & I think that would do part of the job. The other part being as it comes out under a lot more pressure when fired. Seems to me it is going to be a thing to test , unless someone comes along & tells us all more about doing it.



The muxxleloader I am using is a T/C Omega, and as far as I am concerned they are shallow grooved. I do not know about the REAL seating yet, as I have not yet tied it, but I think it may be easier to seat with wider shallow grooves than with narrow deeper grooves.



The sabot has a cup & I pre-lube the cup with a "dab" of "bore butter" lube that I got back when I got this muzzleloader over 10 years ago. What I think happens is that the sabot base expands to seat the bore once the powder goes off & seals the bore, and the heat and combined friction of the plastic & the steel lands & grooves complements the base expansion to also help seal the bore & sabot surfaces. The sabot then conforms to the lands & grooves & imparts the twist of the rifle to the bullet that is cradled in the sabot & once the pair leave the muzzle the sabot is like a shotgun wad with petals( sabot has petals too) and leave the bullet, but the spin imparted to the sabot is transferred to the bullet & so it spins on its way to the target.

I am not sure of others doings, but I fire a primer alone into the barrel before I add the powder or pellets to "foul" the bore & the sabot/bullet is not easy to ram home even without the fouling, so the sabot is "engraving" a bit as it gets rammed home, and then the heat from the firing in addition to expanding the sabot, melts the lube & that follows the sabot and helps fill any imperfections that might be there to help seal the barrel/sabot & lube the barrel for the next projectile to be loaded next. I have not made it a habit to swab the bore between shots, but I usually only fire about 3-5 shots prior to a hunt & then usually only one shot is needed to take the deer. although I have had misfires before, I have not had a miss due to fouling yet. I reckon that if I were to fire more than what I do, I would possibly need to swab the bore on occasion, but I use my muzzle loader for hunting up to this point.

One of the reasons I want to move on to something other than the sabot/bullet is so I can shoot more using my own boolit, as the sabots & bullets together in a package cost way more than just sabots alone & my own boolits, or even REAL boolits without sabots, RB & wad, etc..

One more thing is to answer about the plastic fouling. Yes, it occurs, and although it happens in shotguns, I think it is more pronounced in muzzle loaders due to the rifling in the muzzle loader barrel add what I think is higher pressures, while the rifling in a rifled shotgun is likely less likely at those shotgun pressures to take plastic off, so not as much will foul the barrel. (< just a guess/conjecture. Others will have to verify. I do not know as I only own about 7-8 smooth bores & no rifled bore shotguns))

Source:https://www.chuckhawks.com/muzzleloading_pressure.htm

Anyway, it seems as though when a smoothbore shotgun is shot, I see less plastic fouling from wads than the fouling I encounter from sabots in my muzzleloader. Still enough though to leave "some" plastic on occasion & it will build up as more shots are fired I am pretty sure.

As far as aerodynamic, bucking wind, etc., the bullet inside the sabot is protected by the sabot & does not have any obturation, rifling engraving or anything to change it's shape once it leaves the barrel & AFAIK is just in the same condition as when it was put in the sabot until it hits something. So I would say it is likely more "aerodynamic" thru out its path from ignition to target.

As far as scraping the plastic & fouling with a card, that is beyond any thing I would have experienced & although sounds like a good idea, I have not ever thought about it before & that is a question you will have to ask some of the others, as well as if my thoughts here are not consistent with others who have more experience than I, in muzzleloading and such things as you are asking.

All I can do is tell you what "I" think about some of the things I have experienced, figured out, or just thought about without yet verifying(conjecture).


Once again, G'Luck!

Certainly makes sense to me that the rifles cuts pieces of plastic.