anyone check out the new 300 win legand round?

[Lloyd Smale]

looked some more and got good news and bad. CMMG is already making an ar for the round. But the bad news is it does take a caliber specific mag and from what there saying mags over 10 rounds are troublesome (visions of a 762x39 ar nightmare I had) I guess at least for me this would be a purely hunting ar and would 99 percent of the time be used with 5 rounders but I do like to play and would like to see at least a 20 rounder work in it.

[NSB]

Here's the scoop on this new round. It has a few warts. It's basically a rimless .358max. It's .1" longer than the Max and is being made primarily for those who want a .358" bullet cartridge for their AR. It will be produced in a bolt gun. Here's the downside....big time. Cases will end up being scarce as hens teeth. Look how hard it was to get .357max cases until Starline finally started making them. Loaded ammo even scarcer. If you shoot them out of an AR platform you're going to lose a lot of brass that will be expensive and difficult to replace. It shoots the same bullets you use in the .357mag/max. If offers a very, very slight bit of velocity over the .357max (theoretically) because of the longer case. This is not going to be an improvement over the .357max in any way, and Win would have done a lot more for the shooting community if they'd offered a .357max lever gun. For the life of me I don't see what the fuss is all about. If someone wants one for an AR, go for it, but be prepared to be scrounging for cases. Look at how hard .22lr was for several years. The hoarders will scarf this stuff up and it will be unobtainable. I got burned once on a "wonder round" about twenty years ago when S&W introduced the .356TSW. It was on the cover of either Shooting Times or Guns&Ammo (I don't recall which). I bought a thousand cases and was set to go for a while. I started losing them at matches and when I tried to get more there were none. Then S&W quit the cartridge due to lack of sales. It won't take long for everyone to realize that if you don't load for this round you won't be shooting it....and, if you're loading for it you'll have a very hard time getting brass. Maybe Starline will make brass for it, but shooting it out of an AR platform you'd better be ready to buy lots of expensive brass to feed the beast. Final thought: it headspaces on the case mouth. You'll have to trim brass every time you use it and I can see all the problems now with misfires. The Max headspaces on the rim.

[jmort]

It is a 200 yard gun. The low SD means at 200 yards there is no significant difference from the 300 BO.
Not sure how it is going to displace much in the AR15 platform

150 grain 350 Legend Ammunition

DISTANCE
(YARDS)
VELOCITY
(FPS)
ENERGY
(FT-LBS)
TRAJ
SHORT RANGE
(IN)
muzzle 2325 1800
50 -1.5
100 1968 1289 0
200 1647 903 -7.6
300 1373 628 -28.1

Same bullet/Ammunition, 150 grain Winchester tipped 300 BO with way "Better SD and Greater Penetration and Less Recoil" than the 350 Legend.

DISTANCE
(YARDS)
VELOCITY
(FPS)
ENERGY
(FT-LBS)
TRAJ
SHORT RANGE
(IN)
muzzle 1900 1202
50 1.1
100 1717 982 0
200 1548 798 -9

[GARD72977]

Why would you need a 1:10 twist? You get 1.54 stability factor with NOE's 310gr "thumper" at 1050fps at sea level at 0˚F with a bog standard 16" twist. Makes no sense to me.

Personally, I still haven't warmed up to the idea of a "Modern" sporting rifle so I have no use for Winchester's 9mm whatever. I'm happy that we're so spoiled for choices in this country.

Fast twist are for heavy for caliber bullets. I idea would be to maximize bullet weight till case capacity will push to 1050fps. Not sure where that would be. I'm sure it's well over 310g.

[dragon813gt]

Seeing as how this is being released for bolt actions first I don’t think the AR is high on the priority list. As much as I don’t like cartridge specific mags that doesn’t bother me as much w/ this round. You have to modify them for the 357AR which is a simple process. Buying ones that require no modification will make it more accessible for everyone.

I don’t see brass being a problem. You should be able to make them from 223/5.56 and 223 Basic. Unless I’m reading the prints, which may not be final specs, incorrectly. If it’s a proprietary case that will kill its appeal for a lot of people.

[dverna]

Agree dragon!

The clincher will be if cases can be make from .223/5.56 brass. In the other thread, I stated that it will be a better gun than the Ruger 77 in .357Mag, but that assumed you could make cases inexpensively. If it is a proprietary case, it loses a lot of appeal.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Hard to see why they would have trouble with this cartridge in a magazine. My bet is that it will work well in an AR and offer good performance on game. Given that AR's are very popular, particularly the pistol builds, Winchester had to have this in mind when they developed it. And why not in a lever carbine too? Be a dream to cast and load for.

[lefty o]

Hard to see why they would have trouble with this cartridge in a magazine. My bet is that it will work well in an AR and offer good performance on game. Given that AR's are very popular, particularly the pistol builds, Winchester had to have this in mind when they developed it. And why not in a lever carbine too? Be a dream to cast and load for.

i imagine the magazine issue can be solved fairly easily. use a plastic 300bo magazine, and if needed thin the rib a bit more.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Agree dragon!

The clincher will be if cases can be make from .223/5.56 brass. In the other thread, I stated that it will be a better gun than the Ruger 77 in .357Mag, but that assumed you could make cases inexpensively. If it is a proprietary case, it loses a lot of appeal.

The rim is the same diameter as the .223 and made to work with AR mags and bolts.

[Texas by God]

Too bad some states have dumb regulations. An AR mag length round that takes .358" bullets using 5.56 brass would be fun, but living in Texas I see no need. I have a 30-30 and a 38-55 that bookend it and outperform it. If I'm hunting with an AR, my .300 BO duplicates .357 magnum rifle ballistics handily. I like lightweight bolts and levers better for hunting.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[dverna]

Too bad some states have dumb regulations. An AR mag length round that takes .358" bullets using 5.56 brass would be fun, but living in Texas I see no need. I have a 30-30 and a 38-55 that bookend it and outperform it. If I'm hunting with an AR, my .300 BO duplicates .357 magnum rifle ballistics handily. I like lightweight bolts and levers better for hunting.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Regrettably, there are some "dumb regulations", so for those who live and hunt there this is one option. The .450 Bushmaster is a bit much for deer and recoil can be a bit much. I see where this offering has merit, unlike some of the other "new and improved" offerings we typically get.

BTW, a agree with you. The part of MI I live in does not have the dumb rule. I would have no use for it as a hunting cartridge either.

[northmn]

Its being introduced in a bolt action and is designed for deer hunting in states requiring straight cases for deer hunting. It could be adapted by a lot of different rifles besides AR's. If it takes off maybe even by Savage bolt actions. I live and hunt in a rifle zone and have no use for an AR or this cartridge as I have a Marlin35R lever but it has potential for those that have to use a straight case.


DEP

[McFred]

Fast twist are for heavy for caliber bullets. I idea would be to maximize bullet weight till case capacity will push to 1050fps. Not sure where that would be. I'm sure it's well over 310g.

In .355", .357" and .358" diameters nobody makes projectiles greater than 300gr. NOE's "Thumper" is as Heavy-for-Caliber as it gets. The projectile itself is 1.219" long and will stabilize at bitter cold temps at sea level at 1050fps with a 16 twist. 10 twist is utterly unnecessary.

[Lloyd Smale]

came out in a bolt because as of yet Winchester doesn't make AR's. Like I said though there already being built and your smoking crack if you don't think Winchester aimed this at the ar market. They are the hottest selling rifles hands down today. If they didn't aim it at the ar market there would be no sense basing it on a 223 case.

357 max brass vs this brass. 357 max cant be made out of anything. this brass can be made out of the flat out cheapest rifle brass you can buy anywhere. Also a lot of what killed the 357 max was the problems with throat cutting that ruger had. If ruger still chambered them today id bet they would sell just fine. Will commercial sales take off? Who knows. the bo did and I would have guessed it would be a note in the history books by now. the creedmore sells fairly well and doesn't do anything other rounds don't already do. reason they both took off? Well we all know. Its the gun writers that pushed them. If they push this it will take off too. If you have to really justify a new round there would be nothing new because every base im aware of is covered.

straight case hunting? Ask ruger how many 450 bushmasters they sold in straight wall case restricted hunting states. How many of those people would jump on something that is effective of deer to the same range and kicks less then a 243 let alone there 450 or a 12 guage slug??? LOTS.

Trimming brass? I do that everytime I reload 556 for ars anyway just to insure reliability. No big deal on my rcbs power trimmer and surely no big deal if Dillon makes a die for my Dillon power trimmer.

Nobody said it shot flatter then a blackout. But there both plenty flat to 200 yards and neither is going to bowl deer off there feet at that far anyway and neither should be used any further out. Personaly if I shot a deer at 200 yards id rather have a 35 cal bullet that is iffy for expansion then a 30 cal bullet that's iffy for expansion. Big advantage to the 350 is it would be A LOT more effective on deer with cast bullets in an ar then anything a 30 bo ar will run. About any flat nosed cast bullet out of a 35 at 2000 fps will kill a deer way out past a 100 yards with no problem. Your talking more power then a 357 revolver has at the muzzle at even a 100 yards. Personaly I hope like heck it pans out. So much so that I can buy a complete upper for under 300 bucks from palmetto or someone else. Make it two. One 16 inch and if the liberals haven't won yet another one 8 inch with a brace.

It is what it is. Its not a 300 ultra mag for shooting deer at 800 yards, never claimed to be. Its not a 458 mag for killing charging elephants and it never made that claim either. What it is is a round that makes an ar15 into a decent deer rifle with factory ammo or cast bullets supersonic or even subsonic at short range. Right there is a niche it fills. The blackout with subsonic sure isnt a deer rifle. At least not in my book. Supersonic with the right bullet sure. Sure there are factory rounds like the 30 rem 300 bo 6.8 and 6.5grendel that probably are better on deer with factory bullets but before this if you wanted to hunt with cast you had to step up to a 450 458socom or 50 beo to have a real cast bullet deer rifle. Not everyone can or wants to shoot those cannons. I like them but I don't want to shoot them everyday myself. Look around on the internet and youll find a lot of interest in this round ALOT. I don't recall hardly anybody cheering the 357 max when it came out or even the 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 and 30 rem.

[nekshot]

I applaud winchester for getting into the 35 bore with a rifle cartridge that is not trying to compete with the latest magnum cartridges. I like it but I do like molemans 35 project and I have a 357 bore barrel here that is waiting for my attention.

[dragon813gt]

I’m patiently waiting for CCMG to start selling the magazines. Will definitely try one out. Their barrel specs were a little concerning. The 1/2” thread leaves little metal at the end of the barrel. Was hoping for 5/8x24 so more nuzzle devices would be available. I’m sure we will see them anyway as other makers may decide to go that route.

[cwlongshot]

More info

SAMMI has approved the cartridge!

https://thereloadersnetwork.com/2019...ing-shot-show/

[bpatterson84]

So what does it headspace on? What are pressures going to be like? Will there be any taper at all to aid in extraction in an AR?

I will for sure build one, probably as a super lightweight. .357 opens a ton of doors for cast, I'm very excited to see this out there. Im sure there will be some mold designs out in the next year that will be specific to take advantage of this chambering. I'm looking at YOU, MP honchos!!!

[Lloyd Smale]

the creators will say it headspaces on the case mouth. But about any semi auto that runs reliably is head spacing on the extractor. If a case mouth or even the shoulder of a 223 shell had to be that precisely fitted to the chamber youd be in for lots of reliability issues if your brass even grew a tiny bit or had any crud whatsoever in the chamber. About the only time your truly head spacing on the shoulder is if you neck size bottle neck brass. You about allways need some slop. Trick is to have enough for reliability but not to much or you have brass problems..

[GARD72977]

In .355", .357" and .358" diameters nobody makes projectiles greater than 300gr. NOE's "Thumper" is as Heavy-for-Caliber as it gets. The projectile itself is 1.219" long and will stabilize at bitter cold temps at sea level at 1050fps with a 16 twist. 10 twist is utterly unnecessary.

Unnecessary or not a 1/10 twist accurracy barrel showed up. Seems like somebody decided it needed to be tested.........

On a different note this is a .355 bore.