New 35 caliber

[P Flados]

Over at the msr site, I was looking at the SAAMI chamber / ammo dimensions. I posted my take on things, here is copy of what I wrote (with minor updating):

The overall chamber probably works fine for the meeting the Winchester primary target user (straight wall state, bolt action hunter, non-reloader). But darn if it does not mess with the rest of us in a number of ways.

The 0.355 is strange, but it is not a total disaster. People need to relax a little.

With the 0.357 min freebore, A 0.357 bullet will chamber ok and will size down in the barrel fine with no problems. They actually seem to call for 0.357 bullets in the factory ammo. If they allow 0.357 bullets, the chamber freebore really needs to be above min (0.357), mid SAAMI tolerance or 0.358 should really be minimum target for actual guns.

0.358 bullets can be used, but for most they will need to be seated very deep to avoid jamming into an undersized freebore.

The 0.355 bore makes a mess of the supply chain for new bullets. Regardless of the factory choice, some will want 0.355 bullets. Although 0.357 will be best for any new bullets from general bullet makers (this size will work fine for all three choices), they know that some will be too paranoid to use 0.357 in a 0.355 gun and 0.357 will also not sell to many with 0.358 guns. They also know that there will be a very limited market for true 9mm rifle bullets. It really messes the most with those wanting new/better 0.358 bullets (basically you can forget it).

A 0.357" bore size and 0.359 freebore would have been just so much better.

The min/max (1.71/1.72) on chamber length is not optimum IMO. If they had made the chamber 1.70/1.71 it would be much better/easier to convert 223.

And then there is the taper. The 0.012" taper is much more than we use for the 357AR. Some will reload with standard 38/357 dies, but they will be working their brass a lot. For bolt action guys, the standard 38/357 might make a reasonable neck sizer, but most 350 reloaders will probably need to pop for a set of all steel 350 dies (that I assume will become available).

For custom guns, some may want to go for a hybrid. Stick with enough standard 350 dimensions to allow factory ammo to shoot, but use a 0.357 blank and open the freebore up enough to allow using 0.358 bullets.

[HangFireW8]

Info I found:


Approximately 20 percent less recoil than .243 Win.
20 percent more more penetration than .243 Win.

Not this BS again (not your fault dverna). WHAT LOAD of the 243 Win?

Are we really going to compare to the .243 Win? How about trajectory? Muzzle energy? 300 yard energy?

Is there anything more pointless than comparing to a wildly different concept of cartridge?

Does any AR-limited cartridge really generate any excitement beyond a few gun writers, experimenters, and some newbies?

Make it really exciting, come up with a competition where only it is allowed to compete!

(crawls off of porch and goes back in house)

[dragon813gt]

I looked right past those claims because they’re bogus. The selling point for this round is less recoil than a 450 Bushmaster for restricted hunting zones. All the rest is creative numbers generated by a marketing department.

The dimensions aren’t surprising in the scheme of things. Winchester is in the business of selling guns and ammo. They don’t care about conveying cases from readily available 5.56 cartridges. They want to sell you loaded ammo and eventually cartridges for reloading. This may be the undoing for the round but we will have to wait and see. Part of the reason the 300BLK took off is because of relatively easy case conversion.

[bikerbeans]

I personally would not blow out 223 brass to make 350L. Bulging the sidewall just above the casehead with 55k psi seems really stupid to me.

BB

[dverna]

If it really is a .355 bore, they will regret that decision.

[Time Killer]

My too cents. Wish they would have contacted Mole Man and Mad Dog Weapons. Then tweaked or gone with a system that has been being tweaked for several years now. It would make a wonderful AR round if they would have SAMI specked something similar to what Mole Man created. If you can not convert 223 or at least straight wall 223 factory brass I do not think it will take off as well as the 300 BO did. To me the 357AR was looking to be both a better hunting round and a still be an excellent subsonic round. All I can hope for now is that Winchester has not changed it so much that they ruin all the work done with the wildcat round. One of the advantages of Mole Man's creation was the ability to raise the pressure of the round to 55k from the 40k listed for the 357 Max round. They also seem to be pushing the 150gr round. In my opinion Mole Mans original concept of using the 180 grain round was optimum for this cambering. This would have made it the little brother to the 450 bushmaster as it runs about the same speed with the 180gr and the bushmaster does the 240 gr rounds. If the rifling is built around the 150 gr round to give it the speed boost it may limit the accuracy of the heaver rounds in the gun. AHH rant over.

[dragon813gt]

If it really is a .355 bore, they will regret that decision.

Will they? This is the same company that gave is the WSM and WSSM cartridges. They sold lots of ammo, guns and components and then bailed on the product lines. They made money and left everyone hanging that bought the rifles. It may be the people that buy these rifles that will regret it.

[dverna]

Dragon,
I bought a .243 WSM at a killer price and regretted it. Luckily I sold it for what I paid for it. It was a good lesson.

I am fortunate that I do not need any calibers designed in the last 30 years. This has saved me a lot of money...and that should continue until I die. LOL.

[cwlongshot]

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...troduction.pdf

Well, its pretty much dead to me now... I have a renewed interest so Ill be looking at the 357AR again!

Here is some more information on and about for those still enamored...

https://mdws.forumchitchat.com/?forum=645266

[Time Killer]

Same here, my funds were a little tight with the most recent run. I will just wait for Mad Dog to have another run of the barrels. I prefer to be able to convert 223 brass and shoot a 358 dia bullet.

[beltfed]

Winchester would have been wiser to re-introduce the 38-55 Ballard and/or the 375 win in their m 94 lineup.
Likewise Marlin 336s in hunting carbines/rifles other than their 336CB

Of course these are not suitable for bolt rifles and ARs.
beltfed/arnie

[edp2k]

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...troduction.pdf
https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...12-14-2015.pdf

Interesting, SAAMI drawings for bullet specs are:


350 legend 0.357
357 mag and 38 spl 0.358
9mm is 0.3555

tolerance for all 4 is -0.003

so the 350 legend is NOT a 0.355 bullet.

Looking at chamber dimensions (groove),

350 legend 0.355 tolerance +0.002
9mm 0.355 tolerance +0.004
357 mag and 38 spl 0.355 tolerance + 0.004

So, beside a slight difference in tolerance, 350 legend and 357 mag/9mm are basically the same.

I predict that, in the "court of public opinion", this cartridge will out "blackout" the 300 blackout.
I can't wait to see the stampeed of fanboys in the gun rags and gun boards dropping the old and going for the new!
Just like in the Dr. Seuss "Sneeches" story

Winchester should change the name to the "350 Blkout Creedmoor" and then
watch all the 6.5 and 6 mm creedmoor guys drop those cartridges and start praising this one!

Psst, anyone want to buy a star tattoo on their belly?

[beltfed]

Of note:
Colt made its modern revolvers-Python, Det spl, etc with 0.355" groove dia.
The guns functioned and were very accurate with the plethoria of 0.358 diameter
357 mag and 38 spl ammo out there. No one worried about it.
beltfed/arnie

[Drm50]

I'm in the over hyped camp. If this cartridge don't take off it will flop. It's not costing Win big retooling money on
guns or the ammo. The ony brite spot is endless supply of 223 brass to reload. There is much reason to buy one unless you are forced by game laws. I'm sticking with 375w and I wouldn't have them if it wasn't necessary in
Ohio. When Ohio came out with the law I had 28 deer class rifles. 30/30 through 30/06. I couldn't use any of them. Just happened to have a 1895 45/70. Never thought of it as a deer gun but had to use it. Then I got 375 and 44mg Marlins. Decided 375w best way to go and offed Marlin 375 and got Ruger#3s so I could shoot spitzer bullets. If they allowed 30/30, 32 or 35, I would get rid of 375s & 44mg. The only reason I kept the 45/70 in the
rack was for grins and it shoot well.

[Willbird]

IMHO the best thing to come from it might be some better bullets for us to use in 357AR .

It is a shame that Hornady stopped making the 180 SSP bullets.

Bill

[cwlongshot]

AMEN!!


Speer made another one that was great in the Maximum. A 170 Gold dot shortly after re named DEEP CURL. Then in typical speer fashion... DISCONTINUED.

CW

IMHO the best thing to come from it might be some better bullets for us to use in 357AR .

It is a shame that Hornady stopped making the 180 SSP bullets.

Bill

[Moleman-]

Every 6 months or so I'll send an email to Hornady asking about the 180gr SSP. Always get a canned response back but figure it doesn't cost anything and it can't hurt. Last one I sent mentioned the 350Legend shooters would be looking for a bullet and their best fit is discontinued which will push them to the Speer 180gr HCFN or Winchesters offerings.

[Warhawk]

I plan to build an AR in 350L once it becomes common and any bugs are worked out.

And if Henry were to chamber their Long Ranger in this caliber, I'd be a buyer.

[P Flados]

All indications are that the Legend was made for folks that must use a straight wall case, want a bolt gun and want factory ammo availability.

For the target crowd, it should work pretty well.

For other platforms, yes it should work in an AR-15 based gun.

Not as well as the 357AR (Rimless maximum) in my opinion. We are pretty far in "getting the bugs worked out" for the 357AR.

However, if you do want a 350 Legend AR, consider going with an "Optimized" Legend. Specifically, a 0.357" barrel, a 0.359" throat and a chamber depth right at minimum. The gun will still meet SAAMI specs and would be much better than a "standard" version.

One thing that will help AR folks in both the 357AR and the 350 Legend is a good source of ready to use magazines that work without all of the tweaking.

[FergusonTO35]

Winchester would have been wiser to re-introduce the 38-55 Ballard and/or the 375 win in their m 94 lineup.
Likewise Marlin 336s in hunting carbines/rifles other than their 336CB

Of course these are not suitable for bolt rifles and ARs.
beltfed/arnie

Yes, indeed. We could also argue that Winny needs to roll out a new lower cost lever action to chamber them. The Mirokus are nice but I just don't see too many hunters dropping over a grand on one simply to have an additional gun season option. Surely, there is a manufacturer somewhere that they could hire to produce an econo-94 in straight wall cartridges for the masses. I could see them selling really well in straight wall areas, especially because (unlike the .30-30) they wouldn't be competing against thousands of used rifles.