New 35 caliber

[quilbilly]

Looks like I will be waiting in vain for a lever gun in 357 Max. Winchester is coming out with a new caliber, a rimless 357 max. Apparently it is just a cut off version of a 223 so it will fit on the AR platform. Hope springs eternal though.

[Ramjet-SS]

Saw this rather interesting evidently they feel the Bushmaster has made some ground and this caliber will compete? It definitely looks like a dandy cartridge ballistically and with the proper weapon to deliver it should be fun.

[bikerbeans]

350 legend and the rifles from winchester are bolt guns. They look like ruger american ranch rifles, complete with box mag and threaded muzzle. MSRP $550 to $800 with availability later this year.

BB

[P Flados]

It will fit the AR-15 based guns.

In these guns, the performance will be essentially the same as the 357AR for most rifle bullets. For shorter bullets (such as typical pistol bullets), the extra 0.11" case length gives the new 350 Legend a max effective OAL that will be a little longer. Not sure why anyone would have a good reason to push pistol bullets to say 2300 - 2400 fps, but I am sure some will.

Using straight wall ammo is not what the AR-15 was designed for. Most magazines either will not work, or require modifications. Folks working with the 357AR have found also that feeding is OK with some bullets, but other bullets will not feed from the magazine.

For more info on the 357AR check out:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-Rimless)-AR15

[northmn]

It is primarily aimed at giving people in States that require straight cases for deer hunting a cartridge that has some ballistic advantage over the pistol cartridges. It also does not give the recoil of the bigger cartridges like the 444 and 45-70. Its a good cartridge in its place, for that use, but I would not get excited about it in my rifle zone where I already have a 35R Marlin lever action. If I were to modify a lever to 35 cal the 35-30 would be a better choice. It looks good for its purpose. Standard re-bore for JES

Pictures show it with pointed bullets which I think Winchester may have developed for it. About the only lever rifle ready to adapt to it is the Henry Long Ranger. Its design is probably aimed at use in 223 rifles for deer hunting. If popular in those states its designed for, one might see the cartridge also in rifles like the Savage line. It would make sense in the Axis for instance. Its bullets weights are supposed to range from 150 to 265. Most stress is on the lighter ones like the 180.

The 357 Max might be a good one for tubular levers. Maybe if this takes off a bit Remington might re-introduce it kind of like they did with the 244 to 6mm and call it the 357 Marlin or something along that line. The straight case deer hunting cartridges are a whole new Market.

DEP

[cwlongshot]

Im kinda excited about it. Moleman had me excited when he started the 357AR threads... But feeding problems kinda turned me. But I'm a 35 Fan to the core and used the Maximum for many years and dozens of deer many, many bang flops with a 180 SSP bullet. (I have a bunch stashed.)

I just ordered a couple boxes of ammo to see.

CW

[Ramjet-SS]

Pistol bullets at that speed is not good however Winchester is making ammo with a plastic tipped bullet specifically designed for the caliber. Plus I bet this could be a dandy cast boolit gun with 180 WFN GC boolits.

[dragon813gt]

What’s new is not new and what’s old is new when it comes to cartridge design. Rinse and repeat over and over.

[Texas by God]

If it is .355" instead of .358"- what a mistake...

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[northmn]

If it is .355" instead of .358"- what a mistake...

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I looked it up again and they stated a "357" bullet which is likely 358. Its really not all that adaptable to existing lever actions. Wonder when they will make a long m-1 carbine case to make a 30 cal straight wall case. Most of the allowable "straight walls have a taper anyway as they were made to seal the bore when fired to prevent blowback. 45-70 is not a straight case.

DEP

[smkummer]

Being able to work on a AR platform will be a plus for sales, maybe it’s biggest plus. They are already marketing a subsonic load for suppressors. I don’t think anyone will want to try the revolver platform with it but AR handguns, TC and other single shots will work.

I am guessing it headspaces on the case mouth. Neck tension with long bullets should prevent bullets walking from recoil.

[dverna]

Info I found:


Approximately 20 percent less recoil than .243 Win.
20 percent more more penetration than .243 Win.
Less recoil than 450 Bushmaster
Uses a modified, straight-walled .223 Rem. shell case and a .357-inch bullet
The 350 Legend round is initially offered in six variations:
Deer Season XP - 150-grain Extreme Point
Super X - 180-grain Power-Point
Hog Special - 180-grain Power-Point
USA White Box - 145-grain FMJ Flat Nose
Power Max Bonded - 160-grain Bonded JHP
Super Suppressed - 265-grain Open Tip

Sounds interesting. If it will feed from the AR, it will be successful.

I like the ability to make cases out of .223 brass. The .35AR was interesting but it is always better to have a gun in a factory supported cartridge.

I have a spare AR lower that I would consider using if the uppers are not stupid expensive. But will wait to see if others have feeding issues. Ideally using the same magazines would be perfect but even if specific magazines are needed, it would be OK.

[bikerbeans]

Everything i have read says the bullets are 0.357" diameter. Brass length is 1.71". I haven't found anything saying the bullets or brass will be available as components. Dies and chamber reamers are anybodys guess.

BB

[dragon813gt]

The .35AR was interesting but it is always better to have a gun in a factory supported cartridge.

I’m sure most of us have guns in the safes that take ammo that was factory supported at one time. W/ any new cartridge you should plan in case it goes away like the majority of them do. I converted a 336 to 356 Winchester well after the cartridge was dead. So factory support means little to me.

What’s confusing to me is the fact that the 357 AR has been around for many years yet people are acting like the 350 Legend is brand new and nothing is like it. I realize they are two different cartridges w/ different dimensions. But the similarities are very close and many people have been using the 357 AR w/ great success for years. Can’t wait for one of the big manufacturers to come out w/ their version of the 358 Yeti and claim it as their own

Everything i have read says the bullets are 0.357" diameter. Brass length is 1.71". I haven't found anything saying the bullets or brass will be available as components. Dies and chamber reamers are anybodys guess.

BB

Agree on case length but the reports I’ve read have said .355 diameter bullets. Components will happen over time and w/ popularity. You can make the case from 223 brass so that’s not an issue. And chamber reamers are already listed by one company. Dies will happen over time as well. Give it time and everything will be available.

[bikerbeans]

If the bullet is a 9mm and not a 0.357"or 0.358" it will not be a legal deer cartridge in Ohio.

BB

[cwlongshot]

Good chance that 38/357 dies most of us already have will reload this cartritage...

Back when I first spoke with Moleman I made up a few cases and seated bulelts uing my 357 mag dies.

CW

[Moleman-]

From the PTG reamer print the throat is .357" (so 9mm) and the chamber mouth is .391"ish. Might of just been a test version and the final size could be .355, .357. or .358. With the .012" case taper you'll want to use a modified steel die with some taper. Initally I was going to just push a 357AR reamer in another .110" on a spare pistol barrel I use for testing until I found out about the added taper.

[jmort]

It is a 200 yard gun
Not sure how it is going to displace much in the AR15 platform

150 grain 350 Legend Ammunition

DISTANCE
(YARDS)
VELOCITY
(FPS)
ENERGY
(FT-LBS)
TRAJ
SHORT RANGE
(IN)
muzzle 2325 1800
50 -1.5
100 1968 1289 0
200 1647 903 -7.6
300 1373 628 -28.1

Same bullet/Ammunition, 150 grain Winchester tipped 300 BO with way "Better SD and Greater Penetration and Less Recoil" than the 350 Legend.

DISTANCE
(YARDS)
VELOCITY
(FPS)
ENERGY
(FT-LBS)
TRAJ
SHORT RANGE
(IN)
muzzle 1900 1202
50 1.1
100 1717 982 0
200 1548 798 -9

[Drm50]

As far as selling for deer in straight wall states it will have to bail at least a 150gr bullet at 23-2400 Fps to get much attention. White tail deer aren't hard to kill but what most serious guys are after is a cartridge that shoots
flatter than what's already on the market. With 38/357 minimum for caliber and the design bullets in this range it's going to be hard to come up with anything that will be a improvement on performance of what we already have. This might sell to hunters buying their first rifle but I'm not excited by it. I thought when I first herd about it that is was going to be a 35cal version of 375w which may have had some advantage in velocity. When I gets right down to it it's going to be hard to get 30/30 ballistics out of a straight case.

[MT Chambers]

Okay, in a levergun what is the advantage to this over say the .35 Rem. or the .356 Win? I know there will be those special ops Green Berets here that need it in an AR chambered for it.