WLL 45-45-10 What did I do

[hollywood63]

So I figured I try 45-45-10 vs hi-tek. I lubed up a batch of Lee 358-125-RF. The drop at around 359 ish and 130 grs.. So I lubed, sized to 358 and put a second coat on. Loaded up 25 each of 6grs CFE for 38 Sp at 800 fps (book data) for a cheap range gun I use and 7.5grs CFE for a GP100 at 1300 fps (book data) . I shot 25 hi-tek coated bullets first just to make sure they didn't lead. Then the 25 lubed. In both the range gun and GP they leaded to the point where at 12-15 rounds accuracy was starting to go out the window. So not knowing what the throats are in either gun I was thinking maybe they are getting swagged down (never a issue with hi-tek). So I loaded up 50 for my 9mm pistol leaving them sized at .358 with 4grs CFE with just a light taper crimp they passed the plunk test so off to the range. The accuracy didn't really change after 50 rounds but the barrel leaded (see pics). What am I missing here?

Thanks

[GhostHawk]

Bullet fit is king. HT adds some size to your cast. Lube won't. Hence the leading.

So you either need to cast/size them a few thousands larger, or stick with the HT.

[hollywood63]

Thats what has me messed up I size the hy-tek after coating so they are 358 also. I just slugged the 9mm and it comes out a 356-3565 which should be plenty. Could there be something missing in the lube?

[Dusty Bannister]

What is your alloy?

[crankycalico]

try not sizing the bullets if you plan on shooting with standard lubes.

Have you tried pushing the bullets AS CAST through the chamber throats? and then a few as sized?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I've had some lead fouling issues with some boolit styles if I push them too fast (in 357Mag) when I TL'd the boolits with my homemade 45-45-10. So I don't TL 357 mag loads anymore. But I rarely have problems with TL boolits at standard 38 Spl loads.

add to that, 9mm is tricky enough to load boolits in, I only use traditional wax based lube for all my 9mm guns.

[Rcmaveric]

Honestly thats why I stop playing with tumble lubes. I never could get them to work for me. I will say i never tried them in low pressure and low velocity though. I dont have low pressure rounds like 38 Special. Even PC doesnt alway work in 9mm for me. I want to say its the pressures. Because i slapped some plain based gas checks on there and it cured my random leading from PC. I have not gone back and tried tumble lube and plane based gas checks. At this point i am rather happy with greased bullets.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[JBinMN]

The pics show the muzzle end leading, and not the rest of the bbl.. Is the leading just there, or thru out the bbls?

While what Ghosthawk says is true, that "fit is king", IMO, Dusty Bannister likely is going in the right direction with alloy (being too hard/soft) which would make the boolit possibly fail to obdurate in the short bbls with a hard alloy, or too soft for the pressure/velocity, either of which can cause the boolit to strip all the way down chamber to muzzle.

Lastly, lack of lube can cause leading just at the end of the bbl, but it sounds like you did it properly with the 2 coats, so if you are looking at lube, it is possible, but I would guess unlikely. The ends of your bbls at muzzle look powder fouled with possibly lube under it, so it is hard, for me anyway, to see if you are getting lube(star) on the muzzle crown , which would indicate the lube is working to the end of the bbls.

I am gonna guess that you are aware that the revolver forcing cone acts as a boolit sizer, and IF you are running a boolit fit for the chamber, but oversize for the bbl. , you perhaps are stripping the lead boolits as they enter the bbl & that could cause both leading & lack of lube. {fit}

Since you are having the issue with the pistol as well as the revolver, and the pistol not having a forcing cone, although it may be a "throat" issue from chamber to lands & grooves{fit}, then it may go back the first possibilities of too soft or hard{Alloy}, or even a combination of both. ( I too am thinking "alloy" right now)

I don't think it is the lube, myself, but like said earlier, "Fit", or "Alloy", or even, "both", just going on what I can see without knowing more & based upon , as said above, possibilities of things that could happen not knowing more.

I am no expert, but am just offering an opinion, right or wrong...

You are there with handguns in hand & we are where we are not having any more info than you give to try to help.


Anyway, regardless of if the answer is found here or not...

Reading these links might be helpful, if you have not read them before, or a re-read if ya have:
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_7_Leading.htm

http://www.lasc.us/TaylorLeadingDefined.htm

{ I have the links bookmarked, just for situations like this. }

G'Luck! & please let folks know if ya solve the issues!

[hollywood63]

What is your alloy?

65-35 Pure/lino pencil tests puts me at around 10-11 bhn. I understand its not the most accurate but thats all I have currently.

add to that, 9mm is tricky enough to load boolits in, I only use traditional wax based lube for all my 9mm guns.

my thought process behind using 9mm was to see if bullet fit was and issue which I don't believe is. Meaning the barrel on the pistol measures .356-.3565 and the boolit is .358. The 38sp has .358 throats and a sized boolit will slide thru with the slightest thumb pressure. I'll also check the forcing cone. I'm guessing a boolit should go in until it hits the grooves? I'm also going to try a different powder with a lower pressure.

Thanks to all that's why this forum is top notch.

[hollywood63]

Ok so this is what I came up with talking strictly about the EAA Windicator 38 special with a 4" barrel. With a Lee 358-125-RF sized to .358. Lubed once as directed (light coat) then sized and re coated again as directed with another light coat. Loaded with 6 grains of CFE they leaded the barrel pretty bad. So I pinned the throats all 6 are .358 and a sized bullet pushes through with the slightest of pressure. So I'm good there now I bought a hardness tester and checked the bollits and I get a average out of 10 bullets of 10.5 bhn. So I believe I'm good there so I took another batch of lubed boolits and gave them another coat of WLL 45-45-10 you can see it collected in the lube grooves. Now I loaded up another batch with 6 grs of CFE and cleaned the barrel. Off to the range after shooting 150 of these there was just the slightest sign of leading but no where near before. So unless I'm out in left field I think the lube is lite on caranauba because they boolits never really dry hard like everyone explains with the home brews. I mean they dry but have a slight tacky feel to them but not enough to mess up fingers or the seater die. So I'm thinking of adding a wee bit of carnauba to the mix or did I miss something.

[Dusty Bannister]

Back to the basics. First, you say your bullets are sized to .358" so verify that with a micrometer. Sometimes the sizers are off a little. Next you use a pin gauge to measure the throats. Again, check and verify with a micrometer. Then you realize that your 6 grains of CFE Pistol is shown as the max load for a 130 grain cast Meister cast lead RNFP bullet. Not sure why you decided you had to go to the max without working up a load to that point. That might be somewhere around 17K psi. Is your alloy suited to that pressure? Leading full length suggests not.

Also keep in mind that when you change lubes, you make a significant change in barrel condition. You shot HiTek and got leading, but with a clean barrel and then Tumble lube, got some minor leading. Have you considered burnishing a little of the tumble lube onto the surface of the barrel before you shoot groups again? It seems like you are sort of fighting your "what you want" with "what you have" and just need to slow things down a little and work back up again. Dusty

[GhostHawk]

.358 or bigger, I mostly only size if they won't fit in the brass.

1 to 2 % carnuba does IMO add a hard shell, quicker dry, less sticky.

Last is how much. For me I have never seen leading with a bullet that was big enough, and 2 or 3 light coats. If I am doing rifle bullets and pushing it harder, yes, I do another coat and I start seeing BLL collecting in the lube grooves.

Consistency to me is the key, even coat all the way around the bullet causes no wobbles.
But you do need enough to do the job.

It may be your load is pushing them hard enough they need a skosh more.

[hollywood63]

I screwed up and didn't drop my charge I'm going out today to try the reduced load. I'm sure thats my issue

Thanks Folks

[lar45]

I'm sorry to hear about your problems with 45-45-10 each batch is made the same way and all ingredients are weighed on a postal scale.
If you are going to add more Carnauba wax, I would put the bottle of lube in a pan of hot water to warm up while you are melting the Carnauba. Mix them together while they are both hot. Make sure you have good ventilation While you are warming up the bottle of lube. You are bound to get some mineral spirits to evaporate. I do all of my mixing outside.

Glenn

[gloob]

I could be wrong, but this is my guess.

Hi-tek prevents the bullet from melting when gas jets around the bullet. Lube doesn't. Your bullets are not sealing in the bore, and they never did.

Revolver:
Throats might be tight. But also, many revolvers have a tight spot where the barrel gets tapped into the frame, so some leading is going to happen. All my revolvers have this tight spot. You can feel it with a jag and a tight patch.

9mm:
This problem should be common knowledge by now. It's only been 60 years for the word to get out. The 9mm and 40SW cases are so thick that when you seat a 10.5 bhn bullet into a properly sized case, the case swages the bullet down. You have to get around 20 bhn for this to stop happening. Or you can use an aftermarket expander that is the same diameter as your boolits, and make sure you expand the cases deep enough, almost as deep as the base of the bullet. If in doubt, pull some of your assembled cartridges and measure the base of the bullets, yourself.

38/357 and 45ACP cases are so thin that this doesn't happen.

[randyrat]

BINGO

"9mm:
This problem should be common knowledge by now. It's only been 60 years for the word to get out. The 9mm and 40SW cases are so thick that when you seat a 10.5 bhn bullet into a properly sized case, the case swages the bullet down. You have to get around 20 bhn for this to stop happening. Or you can use an aftermarket expander that is the same diameter as your boolits, and make sure you expand the cases deep enough, almost as deep as the base of the bullet. If in doubt, pull some of your assembled cartridges and measure the base of the bullets, yourself."

[ABJ]

I'm late to the party, but all the above answers have merit. What I will add is the GP100 and SP101 forcing cones are NOT correct and the stainless steel they use is HARD so standard reamers won't hardly scratch them. I fixed mine with gas checks and all leading went away. I did have "Doug Guy" on this forum hone my cylinders to .358 plus. I will not buy another Ruger stainless barrel.
Tony

[gloob]

^My Ruger has a much worse tight spot than my Smithy, for sure. If I cared to shoot revolvers, I'd probably try to lap it out.

I just happen to be a good shot with a Glock, and I got all my Glocks shooting cast bullets to perfection. When you shoot a Glock as good or better than anything else, and you got it shooting perfectly with the cheapest reloading cost possible, and you can buy reliable magazines for peanuts... well, you spend a lot of time shooting Glocks and reloading.