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Thread: Imminent Domain, what to do

  1. #1
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    Imminent Domain, what to do

    A few years ago, the wife and I bought an 18 acre place just outside a town of about 1500 people (maybe three miles out of city limits) which had a house and shop on what was a rock quarry 60 years ago. Perfect for a guy like me as it is wooded and rolling and the nearest house is at least a half mile away. Across the county road is a 30 acre tract with a construction company office on it and nothing else, to our direct west a guy has a hunting cabin and woods (he's not there much) the rest is farmed all around us, particularly right across the road to our north which I learned is a 200 acre + place owned by a man and his wife in their '80s or thereabouts who've had it forever.

    About two weeks ago, the fella who owns the construction company next door drove up and let me know the city needed to build a new sewage lagoon (apparently the current one is inadequate for some reason) and is planning to force the old guy to the north to give up 56 acres to build this thing maybe a half mile from me. This is going to involve running pipe out from the town along Highway 40 then north along my side of the minimally maintained county road I live off of which just from what I've discerned will be a big mess and encroach on a bunch of my property (not sure what the county has as easement for this) and will block my driveway while it's going on (500 feet from the road to the house).

    They had a quick town hall meeting which I missed most of due to a work commitment which apparently got rather heated. My wife did attend and it apparently did get ugly and they tabled the discussion for a while. When I got there, I met the father of the guy who told me about this, their family has been around here forever and knows everybody. He was in a heated conversation with the mayor, but it came to light that he knew someone who successfully fought a gas pipeline that was going to similarly run right next to their rural house and he was going to discuss it with them when they got back from traveling. I need to get back in touch with him.

    Bottom line, it's wrong all around, I can't see where piping sewage out three miles and building a new lagoon could possibly be cheaper than fixing what they have. I know I need to get more information, but where do I start to fight this? I'm at least in touch with the other affected people now, I'm new to this town/area and work in another town and county, so I don't have the connections they do.

    Anybody been through something like this? Seems like an awfully sneaky and under handed way they went about it, I was never notified by any city or county government about this plan and been living here with a mailing address for three years now, they could have sent something out, apparently, I was expected to find out when the back hoes showed up on my property. This is obviously gonna raise my property taxes since they'll have to upgrade the gravel road from what it is and no doubt will kill property values. Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master

    Wayne Smith's Avatar
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    Just on the surface the lack of notification to residences should be a major issue that stops it at least until that is done. Check both the state law and local ordinances on notification.
    Wayne the Shrink

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  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Get an attorney and fight it. There are lawsuits filed in Texas that stopped the wall in 2006. Imminent Domain can be stopped, but its not a simple thing to do.
    jim

  4. #4
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    Not enough information about what property they intend to take....ultimately immanent domain means the gov't unit will take the property it needs for the government good. It must make fair compensation for that land. You can hold them up in court for a while.
    In my area the city was even able to condemn private property to sell it to GM for a new auto plant. (yes one of them they are now closing) on the grounds that the new plant was good for the city. It was challenged all the way to the Supreme Court, and the city won.

    You can fight for the best deal you can get....but it really is difficult to fight city hall. Next election throw the bums out.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    There is a good chance that someone influencing this new lagoon is going to make a lot of money.
    For one thing a new paved road will increase the value of hard to reach property. Some land owner may be angling to make a killing once a new road is built.
    You need to find out who all is pushing the project and why.
    You also need a lawyer that is used to seeing these dirty tricks.
    EDG

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    The city seems to have the county in their pocket on this?

    I agree on the lawyer but chose wisely. Any lawyer can take your money but it takes a tough experienced one to win. Expirience in condemnation law specifically. I know, we fought a condemnation with the USFS for eight years, collected damages five times what the compensation was to be and still kept our property protected. But only because we were steered to a very specialized capable attorney before all was lost. Our matter was so rotten, the local US Attorney told me he was glad our family won (it was not handled out of his office).

    You basically have a two front war ahead for you, one to stop it in the first place and two to get enough compensation in case the first fight ends poorly. I don’t think you will want a stinkin’ sewage hole across the fence from your house to live by.

    The city likely wants to pump the misery their folks generate onto you rural folks.

    You mentioned a rock pit. Perhaps you need to wrangle the county into permitting that in addition to the compensation fight. You would likely sell out and who would buy your property to live on? If the need for rock is substantial and there is still plenty of material left maybe you could enhance your departure.

    Just thinking outside of the box as we have a substantial one ourselves.

    Three44s
    Last edited by Three44s; 01-18-2019 at 10:42 AM.

  7. #7
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    Fyi check the county road ROW. In Colorado the Feds gave the Counties a 30 foot wide road easement each side of a section line back in the late 1800's. This ROW was granted on any lands not held in private hands at that time. They could build in the road ROW if that is the case but would need County permission. You can find this out by calling the county road dept. Plus they cannot block your driveway or access unless they provide an alternate access, check with local Fire dept on that. Also you don't live in the town and are not an adjoining owner so they would not provide you notice. They probably posted notice in a paper of local circulation and that is your notice. That is why EVERYONE should read the notices in their papers of record for their town or county.

    Do they have to get a county permit for this or are they doing a flagpole annexation. Can't imagine that is their plan with it being 3 miles out if town. Check into the annexation requirements, that may be a way to monkey wrench it too. If they have to get a county permit then they would not condemn until they get that approval. The more expensive you make it to condemn the better luck you will have in stopping it. Good luck.
    Steve,

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  8. #8
    Boolit Master


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    I think you mean "eminent". Just sayin'...…...
    Micah 6:8
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  9. #9
    Boolit Master



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    This will take multiple focused efforts to stop.

    (1) Research and see what City/County official stands to have personal gain (Adjacent/on sewer route properties, Lift/Pump Station locations, ownership/stock in contracting companies, etc..

    (2) Engage the printed press, radio, and TV for coverage of the oppressed rural land owners. Engage with a well spoke & researched representative on radio talk shows (lots of people who are active and vote still listen to talk radio).

    (3) Research and find out where the Money for the New Sewage Lagoon is coming from. If it is from a Federal or State Grant then write letters opposing the legislation for the Grants, have representatives against show up on hearings, engage the press against the "Wasteful" Spending on the matter. If funding, grant etc.. is already approved, research how and initiate a fight to freeze ALL OF the money pending additional hearings, route validation, impacts, etc...

    (4) Research the existing lagoon/sewage system. Can it be remediated, expanded, new technology applied to meet the needs (plan for 20-25 years out on this solution as that's the lifecycle for facility and the length of most BOND FUNDS. Get this information out to public, particularly show how it would be cheaper than taking others property 3 miles or so away.

    (5) Research if other parcels around/adjacent to the existing facility can be annexed (or taken by Emminent Domain). This is a case where ALTERNATIVES should be put forward and why the alternatives are better than the taking of land 3 miles away.

    Given the size of the Community; I suspect this is a dolling out of Public Monies from the State or Federal Government. Contact the State or Federal elected officials (State or Federal House (Assembly or whatever you have) & Senators and make your case; then let them know if they persist in seizing your property you and many neighbors will vocally campaign against them in future elections = this must occur in conjunction with number 5 above; as a Swamp Critter or a State Swamp critter has to have a way out as they are dangerous when cornered.


    Also; research what "Endangered Animals/Insects/Plants" are in your area. Claim that some (or all) are located on the route to your property and a "In Depth Study" must be done. This is a delaying action only. You do not want them (Government) stopping the use of your or your neighbor land.
    Mustang

    "In the beginning... the patriot is a scarce man, and brave and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain.

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy adcoch1's Avatar
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    As has been said, figure out why they want to pump it that far out, it sounds like a grant funding thing. As to seizing property, they can do it if they need to, but not without compensation. I used to develop the maps and ROW plans for wsdot for roadway and construction projects like this. They probably have a 30' road easement at minimum. In that they can do whatever they want to, but you have to be able to retain reasonable access.

    Side note, most property owners that fought back received 125%-150% value for their property. Also, by offering alternative solutions you may be able to head it off, but these things are rarely a quick thing, and planning could have been ongoing for years before this. Still sounds like they think this location will be either cheaper or less hassle than other locations. Gotta speak up. And vote out those pushing it if they get nasty. Take away the authority from those kind of people.
    "Give me liberty, or give me death!" Patrick Henry ,March 23, 1775

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I'm not an expert but I have a limited amount of experience with this. My experience is with power lines, different than a sewer pond for sure. With my company, the company rep will research property values in the area and attempt to buy the right of way at a reasonable price. If that fails they condemn the property and it goes to court. On power line right of ways they take a right of way out of the property and deed the property back to the land owner. The land owner can use the property as he sees fit with a few exceptions. No buildings, no trees, ect. They can farm it, use it as pasture, ect. Like I said, somewhat different than a sewer pond.

    In all deals of this sort the land owner will be fighting an up hill battle. Basically an individual against a municipally or large corporation.

    As to blocking your driveway, this should be very temporary. It won't take long for a trackhoe to dig the trench and lay the pipe. Most contractors deal with this all of the time and should make accommodations to you. Such things as using steel plates as bridges, ect. They also usually fix or repair any damage to your existing driveway and yard. Often it is left better than it was.

    It still sucks to be the little guy. Please don't mistake that I'm taking sides against you. I'm just relating my experiences. I won't discuss strategies as you already have plenty of post offering advice.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master gnostic's Avatar
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    Save your money, some dirtbag lawyer will tell you he can handle it, he can't... The Las Vegas strip is built on land that was taken by eminent domaine. Make the city, county or state pay a reasonable price that includes a nuisance fee... With the government, the path of least resistance is best...
    Last edited by gnostic; 01-19-2019 at 02:29 AM.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master Wag's Avatar
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    Great advice in the above. Mustang wrote most of what I was going to add.

    Get into the City Council Meetings at EVERY meeting, especially if they have a time set aside for public comment. Raise all of the issues and make all of the accusations you can while you're in those meetings during the public comment time. It's a frustrating time to talk, but be very sure to stay very civil during that process, otherwise, you can be banned from the meetings.

    Note that they have to have an agenda of items to discuss during their meeting but that does NOT limit you and your comments. Raise the issue at every meeting, regardless.

    If you've gotten your opinion in the local paper and the local radio and pushed people to get to the meetings, you'll have the presence of people in place to make yourself matter a lot more. The kinds of things people hate the most are wasted public money so make a case for that there. Also, a lot of people hate that ecological damage will occur so talk about that, too. Morality is also a huge issue for people so I'd be willing to accuse the city of trying to "steal" the land from a helpless 80-year old owner.

    Don't pull any punches. You'll likely only have one to three minutes of time to talk so find out and then get your speech on paper and rehearse it a few times in front of a mirror in order to ensure your own civility while allowing your anger to show. That's hard to do but if you get into too much of a temper tantrum in front of a meeting, you'll lose credibility. And do NOT threaten anyone on the council, even though it's tempting to threaten that you'll get them voted out of office. This will not likely help your cause.

    Others on your side may comment as well so feel free to help coach them if they are willing to listen.

    Also, if your council meetings try to ban public comment, I believe there are rules which require them to allow it but I'm not certain. You'll have to research it.

    At the very least, you may be able to stall this project if you play your cards right. Stall it long enough and they'll finally back off.

    We've had an issue on the table in our local county for four years because of a LOT of people going to EVERY meeting, giving almost the exact same speech, recruiting every special interest group they can find and persisting every step of the way. They have "succeeded" in beating that issue so far and while I believe they will finally fail, they have done surprisingly well. FWIW, I don't agree with them, but I have to admire their resiliency and their success so far.

    Keep us posted on how it goes. It's a tough battle and I don't envy you at all.

    --Wag--
    "Great genius will always encounter fierce opposition from mediocre minds." --Albert Einstein.

  14. #14
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    You can thank Obama for this. It is part of the EPA unfunded mandates for cleaning up the water at the sewage plants. It is happening at all plants. It just depends on how outdated the system your town has on how it has to be done.

    Our town just went through with this. After all was done, our bills went up 400% to cover the cost. And here is what was the most BS part. We have two towns near by. After the plant was finished, they were able to tie into the plant but their bills were no where near as high as ours are in our town. All they had to fund was the pipe that was to be laid to get to the plant.

  15. #15
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    It is Eminent Domain not Imminent Domain. Easy mistake and not critical.

    Be careful in the way you approach that fight, you never want to spend more money than is at stake. I've seen more than one overzealous land owner fight "for the principle of it" when they would have been FAR better off negotiating a better sale price for the lost land.

    The government DOES have the power to take land for public use and the government must compensate you for the taking of that land.
    If the property in question is worth $5000 and the government is willing to give you $5000 for it - IT MAKES NO SENSE to spend $15000 of your own money to ultimately walk away with a $5000 check and $15000 attorney bill.

    You have to take the emotional component out of these things or you will fall prey to someone else that will simply capitalize on your emotions.

    Think about the fact that you ultimately cannot stop the action from occurring so it's better to walk away with the maximum amount of money and the least amount of cost.
    The government agencies involved would rather pay a little more to the landowner and avoid a court battle (that they are ultimately going to win anyway) than to litigate the issue for months or years.
    The issue is rarely, "can the government take the land for public use". The answer is almost always - YES, the government can take the land.
    The issue occasionally is, "what is a fair market value for the land taken"?

    So if they are going to take a small sliver of land, make them pay fair market value and carry on.
    If they are going to take so much land that the remainder is no longer useful or marketable - sell the entire parcel to the government. You will not be able to sell it to anyone else so don't cut off your nose to spite your face.

    I saw one of these issues with a state road that could have turned out better. The government made an offer that was low. The land owner countered with an unreasonably high demand. They couldn't reach an agreement and ultimately there was a lawsuit that resulted in a fair market value for the land but by the time the land owner paid the attorneys he would have been FAR better off to have reached a settlement prior to trial.

    Don't let your emotion drive the boat.

    And one last piece of free advice - Don't join other people's emotional battles.
    Last edited by Petrol & Powder; 01-18-2019 at 02:11 PM.

  16. #16
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    Corruption aside, there must be some reason why the city wants to build a lagoon at that location? Maybe it is close to a river/stream/ditch, so they can drain it periodically?

    If they are set on that location, and they need some of your property, I can't imagine why they wouldn't have contacted you already? Maybe they aren't that far in their planning? or maybe the don't need any of your property, if the easement of that unmaintained road is wide enough...then Eminent Domain would not be required.

    Fighting Eminent Domain:
    It is nearly impossible if the city/county have not made any mistakes in planning. A friend of mine lives on a farm on a county road in Minnesota, when the county planned to widen road and widen the curves, they needed more land to achieve what they wanted to do. Many landowners attempted to fight it and spent lots of money doing so, and the County had all their T's crossed and i's dotted and not one land owner was successful in their fight...except getting a higher compensation for the land that the county needed to buy.

    I wish the best for you and your situation and wait to hear more info as you uncover it.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
    ― The Dalai Lama, Seattle Times, May 2001

  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy rkrcpa's Avatar
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    It sounds like two different issues. From what I understand, the impact on your property will be temporary, ending when the pipeline project is complete. If that is true it is not a case of eminent domain so much as infringing upon your right of way. If they already have an easement there is not much you can do to stop them.

    As far as the neighbor goes, that sounds like eminent domain and they should be compensated if the project is not stopped outright.

    As far as property taxes, it would be a rare thing to have your property taxes go up because of something that lowers the property values.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master



    MUSTANG's Avatar
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    There is an argument for the "Government Taking" associated with reduced land/property values based on a Government Project. A sewage pond installed by Government next door reduces your property value and utility (Smell, Traffic, other decreasing elements). Through this Government Action; one can argue that the Government has "Taken Value"; outcome would all depend on the eloquence of the owner & lawyer; Disposition of the Judge, and the feeling of ones peers who would be in a Jury if it were a Jury issue.

    This in a different vein can be used against the relocation of the Sewage pond. In the Flathead Valley (Kalispell Montana Area) many people were against a Bottling plant being established to bottle water; they argued the environment and the water table would be negatively impacted, resulting in reduction of their Land and Home values. Argument was weak given the volume of ground and surface water in the area; Courts ruled against the neighbors challenge - Bottling Plant is moving forward.

    In the Moapa Valley (Moapa Nevada) residents in Moapa argued against a "Drive Through Wild Animal Park" based on the potential for dangerous animals escaping and becoming a threat to the residents of the area, and escaping animals being a threat to the eco system. Never went to court as the County Commissioners wee leaning towards the "Residents" so the developer pulled the plans.

    In the Moapa Valley (Moapa Nevada) the power company wanted to put up a bunch of solar panels to create a "Renewable Energy Solar Farm" in the Upper Muddy River area. Myself and other locals argued against it; strongest argument was the "Study" that the power company had made years before that the property the wanted to use was "A Sensitive Area" that needed protection. Of course the reason the power company wanted/owned the property in the first place was because Water Rights were tied to it and if they lost the property- they lost the Water Rights. We won the issue and the Solar Power Farm was cancelled because the Judge it would have gone to said that either it WAS or WAS NOT a sensitive area. If the power company was going to bulldoze the ground and kill off the vegetation and ground/sub surface animals in the area then it was "Obviously NOT a Sensitive Area. The issue of the Power Company Owning and Controlling the Water Rights would come into question, with them falling out of compliance with the State Law/State Engineer requirements to keep the water rights - so they cancelled their plan for a Solar Electric Farm on a couple hundred acres.

    Fighting these encroachments requires one to look at the whole environment; find something that will hurt/cause pain to those seeking to "TAKE PROPERTY" or diminish your value; ten hitting them hard where it hurts. Most Government Elected Officials, Bureaucrats, etc.. are not used to a well informed, well organized, and determined opponent. Arm yourself with knowledge, research and allies and go forth and challenge those who would yield power without thought, deliberation, discussion and negotiation for a Best Outcome.
    Last edited by MUSTANG; 01-18-2019 at 04:46 PM.
    Mustang

    "In the beginning... the patriot is a scarce man, and brave and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain.

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    Check the eminent domain authority of the city AND county. They should be separate which means the city has gone to the county unless it actually is a county water district. My guess, somebody has a bunch of $ interest in it, like the construction Co? Txdot was planning a connector here between existing roads, to take ~40 300K$ homes. Didn't go very far. Also watch for the possibility that the city will annex out to where the tank is to be built - or another location the other side of town. What is a sewage lagoon? Around here that would be illegal, has to be a sewage processing plant. A open air lagoon (pond)would need EPA air & ground water tests. This sounds more like a remote septic tank deal.
    Whatever!

  20. #20
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    Check the eminent domain authority of the city AND county. They should be separate which means the city has gone to the county unless it actually is a county water district. My guess, somebody has a bunch of $ interest in it, like the construction Co? Txdot was planning a connector here between existing roads, to take ~40 300K$ homes. Didn't go very far. Also watch for the possibility that the city will annex out to where the tank is to be built - or another location the other side of town. What is a sewage lagoon? Around here that would be illegal, has to be a sewage processing plant. A open air lagoon (pond)would need EPA air & ground water tests. This sounds more like a remote septic tank deal.
    Current Sewage Lagoons will have either a very thick Pond Liner, or an Impervious Clay layer to prohibit water (effluent) from seeping into the water table; along with aerators; sweeps to address floating debris and algae growth, and other devices. Over time, the sludge is going to build up and the Sludge is "Mined" from the lagoon with a Tractor Bucket, Track Hoe, or.... and then spread over some pre- approved ground.

    Of course, one who is trying to stop the project should find out how current sludge is "Mined" and see if there is an argument against the existing or future Sewage System based on the Sludge issue.
    Mustang

    "In the beginning... the patriot is a scarce man, and brave and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain.

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