Selfishness/fear as religious motivation

[Traffer]

I still don't understand. Maybe it is because I don't care. One of the big differences between God and me is that God cares for all people. I try to but really don't. I figure that those who do not believe will have quite a rude awakening when they face Him on judgment day. I have warned many and have even said that I will bear witness that I did so at their judgment.
As far as fearing God...seems a prudent thing to do since God himself said, "do not fear man who can only kill you, but fear God who after taking your life can send you to eternal torment". Yes, it is a good thing to fear God. Just like it is a good thing to fear a gun that is pointed at your head.

[dverna]

popper,
No offense taken my friend.

So far, I have not seen in the Bible where God tells us he is perfect but I am not a scholar. I cannot find anything using Google either. What I have found is something written by someone on the subject. This person stated that it was ancient theologians who wrote about God being perfect...it was their belief. And that belief has permeated modern religion. It anyone can point me to areas in the Bible where God confirms His perfection, I would be very appreciative. It will help the op too!

There are sections in the Bible that make more sense to me if God is not perfect. The simplest example is the 613 laws of the Old Testament. These were given to man to follow even after Adam and Eve could not follow even one rule. Why would God expect His children to know and follow 613 Laws, when mankind showed in Genesis they could not follow one?..... unless He wanted us to fail??? God made a mistake...I think...and, after realizing man could never meet His standards, He sent us Jesus so His children could find salvation. There are numerous other examples but that is enough thread drift for now.

[popper]

Don, I believe you are referring to the Israelite rules and ordinances of the Celebrations, offerings, cleanliness and general 'methods' (my words) of worship. Tithes, celebrations, not working on Sabbath (Saturday) were IMHO given by God but the 'refining' and application were of man. Some are real life rules (expanding 10 Commandments), others are tradition.
As an example, Mary tell Jesus to 'solve' the wine problem. As a parent one can give instructions to grown children; but to the Son of God? Jesus response was to honor God (wasn't His time yet but IMHO, he got permission?) yet he honored his mother. When reading that passage in our language I get the impression that Jesus is ticked (feeling manipulated?), Mary realizes what she has done and acquiesces to His action. Jesus has a choice, sin and deny a parent's legitimate request or not. It gets tricky and we don't always do the right thing. Is cooking or chewing wheat as you walk through a field on the Sabbath a sin, as it involves 'work' of your muscles?

[wv109323]

T McD,
Don't let all the manmade rules and regulations keep you from accepting and serving Christ. The best rulebook for serving Christ is the Bible. I agree there is a mind boggling amount of manmade rules out there that have nothing to do with your salvation. And many are in conflict with one another.
The best way is to read the Bible and decide for yourself what is right. Commentaries on the Bible can help, so can Bible study groups. Also if you know some one that you can respect for his beliefs ask them to counsel you when you have questions. He/they will be able to show you what they believe in the Bible.
I attend a church where the pastor recently observed 70 years as a Christian and about 67 as a preacher. I have never heard one person criticize him. He has a balance of humbleness and boldness that is respected. A persons testimony will bear them out.
I did an extensive study on the Bible to confirm it was Gods word. The best book I found on the subject was a book" How we got the Bible" by author Lightfoot. I have read it 5 times and learn more each time. The bottom line is the King James is very,very reliable. I refer to the Bible and not man.
I belief what is in the Bible. I believe that God can operate outside our laws of time, space and matter so I accept what is written. I can not explain explain it all nor does the Bible require me to know it all.
Just start slow and learn. The Holy Spirit will guide you to the correct understanding.

[Hickory]

What is the motivation to do or be good outside of fear? I say fear but my thoughts encompass the idea that all actions good or bad are in some way self serving.
Just some of my musings.

Love, is the motivation.
It is the same reason you do good to your wife and children, it's because you love them.
But, even in marriage there is fear. Fear of rejection, fear of loss, fear of of a divorce and the punishment of its outcome.

It is the same with God. God loves us and expects us to love him. If we reject God and his love we end up lost and bound for punishment.
Divorce court and Hell can be quite the same. Only, one last forever.

[Ickisrulz]

popper,
No offense taken my friend.

So far, I have not seen in the Bible where God tells us he is perfect but I am not a scholar. I cannot find anything using Google either. What I have found is something written by someone on the subject. This person stated that it was ancient theologians who wrote about God being perfect...it was their belief. And that belief has permeated modern religion. It anyone can point me to areas in the Bible where God confirms His perfection, I would be very appreciative. It will help the op too!

There are sections in the Bible that make more sense to me if God is not perfect. The simplest example is the 613 laws of the Old Testament. These were given to man to follow even after Adam and Eve could not follow even one rule. Why would God expect His children to know and follow 613 Laws, when mankind showed in Genesis they could not follow one?..... unless He wanted us to fail??? God made a mistake...I think...and, after realizing man could never meet His standards, He sent us Jesus so His children could find salvation. There are numerous other examples but that is enough thread drift for now.

God's perfection is rooted in his sinlessness, omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence. These four attributes are clearly stated many times in the Bible and enable God to always act perfectly. God is never surprised or defeated and only reluctantly destroys that which has failed. The only thing that holds up God's plans are people. This is because God works in cooperation with them.

The Old Covenant given to the Jews had a purpose. It was to show man he could not please God by following a list of rules. The Law was also meant to lead man to Christ. Read Romans/Galatians for an explanation, it is all in there. Despite the Law and man's inability to follow it, many people in the Old Testament pleased God through their faith.

I don't mean to come across as a jerk, but why when you cannot understand something do you put the blame on God and claim he is imperfect?

[T_McD]

God's perfection is rooted in his sinlessness, omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence. These four attributes are clearly stated many times in the Bible and enable God to always act perfectly. God is never surprised or defeated and only reluctantly destroys that which has failed. The only thing that holds up God's plans are people. This is because God works in cooperation with them.

The Old Covenant given to the Jews had a purpose. It was to show man he could not please God by following a list of rules. The Law was also meant to lead man to Christ. Read Romans/Galatians for an explanation, it is all in there. Despite the Law and man's inability to follow it, many people in the Old Testament pleased God through their faith.

I don't mean to come across as a jerk, but why when you cannot understand something do you put the blame on God and claim he is imperfect?

Why when you don’t understand do you fall back on a “perfect” god, we are asking the same question just from a different viewpoint.

[popper]

Read about Martin Luther. He finally realized that he was worried about everything he did, was it a sin? God gave the Commandments for us to follow, they are not suggestions. However, He knew we couldn't keep them so it is a proof to us that we aren't 'good'. We try, fail and our failures are covered by Jesus, only if we truly believe He is perfect Son of God.Is it a sin to miss church once in a while to do something else? Paul started churches to spread the Gospel, teach others; not to require attendance or 'else'.

[T_McD]

I still don't understand. Maybe it is because I don't care. One of the big differences between God and me is that God cares for all people. I try to but really don't. I figure that those who do not believe will have quite a rude awakening when they face Him on judgment day. I have warned many and have even said that I will bear witness that I did so at their judgment.
As far as fearing God...seems a prudent thing to do since God himself said, "do not fear man who can only kill you, but fear God who after taking your life can send you to eternal torment". Yes, it is a good thing to fear God. Just like it is a good thing to fear a gun that is pointed at your head.

And this is precisely why Church sucks... it is full of similar attitudes. How do you have the audacity to believe you have salvation when you gleefully envision others being denied it? It is mind-boggling to me. The greatest commandments are to love god and to love people. Explain how “not caring” fits into either category?

[Ickisrulz]

Why when you don’t understand do you fall back on a “perfect” god, we are asking the same question just from a different viewpoint.

When I look at creation, I see proof of a Creator that might just know a little more than I do.

I have read and studied the Bible for decades and have concluded its story is the only feasible explanation for our existence, our present state and solution for our problems. No other religion or philosophy comes close.

Additionally, I have seen God's hand and goodness in my own experiences.

So, I give him the benefit of the doubt.

[T_McD]

When I look at creation, I see proof of a Creator that might just know a little more than I do.

I have read and studied the Bible for decades and have concluded its story is the only feasible explanation for our existence, our present state and solution for our problems. No other religion or philosophy comes close.

Additionally, I have seen God's hand and goodness in my own experiences.

So, I give him the benefit of the doubt.

Fair enough, I appreciate the acknowledgement of doubts. Seems to be all I have at the moment

[dverna]

God's perfection is rooted in his sinlessness, omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence. These four attributes are clearly stated many times in the Bible and enable God to always act perfectly. God is never surprised or defeated and only reluctantly destroys that which has failed. The only thing that holds up God's plans are people. This is because God works in cooperation with them.

The Old Covenant given to the Jews had a purpose. It was to show man he could not please God by following a list of rules. The Law was also meant to lead man to Christ. Read Romans/Galatians for an explanation, it is all in there. Despite the Law and man's inability to follow it, many people in the Old Testament pleased God through their faith.

I don't mean to come across as a jerk, but why when you cannot understand something do you put the blame on God and claim he is imperfect?

How can people hold up God’s plans, when God knows all that will happen and He knows who will fail before the fact.

BTW, you are correct....when I cannot understand something I believe I should be able to understand, I question His perfection. Especially when He never states He is perfect. I have found where the Bible says His love is perfect, and I truly believe that.

He allows natural disasters to take numerous lives....even those of babies who could not have sinned, but I believe He loves them and saves them. I cannot understand why He allows it, but I accept there is a higher reason I cannot comprehend. I do not see these as mistakes...they are acts of God.

I will study Romans and Galatians as you suggest to understand why the 613 laws were not a mistake. Thanks for the guidance. My issue with the Laws is that He gave them to us as a way to live our lives as He desired....and any rational person knows mankind could never satisfy them.

I have never seen you as a”jerk”.

[Thundarstick]

And this is precisely why Church sucks... it is full of similar attitudes.

Yes friend, this is correct! As you see, church is made up of people, people aren't perfect, God's plan is perfect however. God's still working on me and I'm sure he will continue to work on all who follow him. However, we are ONLY made perfect in Christ before God's eyes. I attend church services and study the Bible BECAUSE I'm not perfect, and I want to be the man God wants me to be! NOT to see how many perfect Christians I can find there.

An old friend (he's passed on now) told me once, "christianity is more than just a belief, it's actually a life style we choose to live. ".

[Ickisrulz]

How can people hold up God’s plans, when God knows all that will happen and He knows who will fail before the fact.

God has chosen to partner with people when it comes to the human race. God never works alone. Here are some examples of successful endeavors:

1. We plant our food and God causes it to grow.
2. God sent a flood to wipe out evil but Noah had to save specimens of each animal.
3. Moses was sent to deliver Israel from Egypt and God worked the miracles.
4. Prophets sent to Israel to deliver God's message.
5. Jesus was raised by a human familiy and educated by Jewish teachers.
6. Jesus multiplied the fish/bread and the disciples served it.
7. Jesus bought salvation for mankind and the Apostles spread the Gospel.

However, when man does not do his part, God's plan is either postponed, cancelled or changed. One simple example: it is God's will that everyone have enough to eat. However, (traditionally) a person who does not plant a crop, harvest and process it will starve. One complicated example: When Israel moved into the Promised Land, God told her to remove the wicked inhabitants to eliminate their bad influence. God could have removed them with a plague or other disaster, but he made Israel responsible for this (warfare). Israel failed to do as God commanded and was repeatedly lured into idolatry. This eventually led to the Exile. This was not what God wanted for Israel.

People see God as all powerful and all knowing and come to the conclusion that he will press on no matter what to get his way, or at least not set on a course of action that will not succeed. The Bible shows this way of thinking just isn't true.

[pmer]

5 or 6 years ago I was in a similar boat to where T_McD is and I was asking/posting about how to read the bible. Where to start and getting confused about some of translating from the old languages to the modern terms we see in bible. Like love God and hate my brother is more about holding God first and others second. When I see the word fear in the bible I often think respect.

At our ''church'' we try to not mix the terms religion and church. The church is the body of Christ and religion are all the various denominations of people adding, changing and tweaking. I'd try to a find a church that sticks very close to the bible as it is written.

When T_McD mentioned growing up in a church when the parents bring there kids up in the religion that they are attending that caught my mind because that was me too. Sure the parent is bringing up the child in a tradition of faith but at some point in time that child gets confronted by the Spirit on their own and has to decide for themselves about God. A parent can only take you so far down this road, the remain steps are up to T_McD.

The doubt you are facing is the heavenly battle for your soul. The doubt is real, it's something you can feel and I'm praying for you. My hope for you is to keep searching for your answers and not give up. I suspect the proof you're looking for is not far from you. The proof was all around the Pharisees' and they chose not to see it.

Up until I asked Jesus into my life I thought I was christain. One day the Spirit started working on me and after a while it finally turned into a life changing event and I wouldn't go back for anything.

[Ickisrulz]

My issue with the Laws is that He gave them to us as a way to live our lives as He desired....and any rational person knows mankind could never satisfy them.

God is motivated by love. Therefore, the Law was given for man's well being, happiness and education. Sure, no one could follow the entire Law and no one was justified by the Law. However, the closer an Israelite adhered to the Law the better off he'd be during his life on earth (e.g., see Psalm 1).

If we take out the ceremonial and sacrificial aspects of the Law, we are left with commands for loving God and loving our neighbor. The more any person or society follows these commands the better things will be. If you think about it, no one wants to live in a place where crime is rampant, no one cares about anyone else and the justice system is corrupt.

So, was the Law a TOTAL failure? Not in my understanding.

[Traffer]

And this is precisely why Church sucks... it is full of similar attitudes. How do you have the audacity to believe you have salvation when you gleefully envision others being denied it? It is mind-boggling to me. The greatest commandments are to love god and to love people. Explain how “not caring” fits into either category?

Well someone took the bait. I do actually try to care for people ...love them. I know it is essential to representing Christ on earth. Or being an ambassador for the Kingdom of God. It is something that I realize must change in my character. I pray for it nearly every day. Just as Hickory stated, "love is the motivation". I like most people, was not raised as a Christian. I was taught to judge and hate my enemies. Turning to God, the Bible and Jesus when I was 32 years old, I began to learn that my perspective was way out of synch with God. Indeed the conviction in my heart came after reading the first chapter of Romans, then reading the first sentence of Romans 2. I was seized, literally seized by my conscience. I fell on my knees and started to beg God to change me. I promised him to live by his word since it had just revealed my heart is such a way. That is how I began my quest to know God through his word.
It is an ongoing struggle for me to keep the right perspective and carry the love in my heart to continue with the "ministry of reconciliation". This is how God refers to the work of Christ and the continuing work of his disciples. We live to reconcile others to God. The reward is to be "with God", having his Spirit dwell inside of us. As it says in 2 Corinthians Chapter 3..."But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit."
This is the "offer" or "promise" that is given to us in the Bible. That we may be transformed into the likeness of Christ.
So why are there so many Christians like me? People who are fed up with those who perpetrate evil, hate God and do everything in their power to destroy Christianity and the faith of those who believe?
We have a powerful enemy. The Deceiver. He is better at what he does that anyone realizes. When we take our eyes off of God we immediately begin to be effected by his cunning. (Thank God for His Grace and Mercy) I am just rambling here now... I guess to sum it up, being a Christian is a personal thing between a man and his Creator. It certainly has much to do with a man and the others around him also. But if a man keeps close to God he reflects his God. As far as the Church is concerned, that is a very long topic. Certainly the Christs Church is flawed as the people are flawed. Even to the point that we cannot define who is a member and who is not. It is the possession of Christ and He determines who is part of him. "not everyone who comes to me and says "Lord, Lord" is ..."
I think it is utterly missing the point to try and defend a "religion". It is not about that and the discussion should not be about that. It is just another mis-direction by the Deceiver. I think it foolish to try and reason with Satan. No man is a match for him. Like a pea shooter against cannon. No match. The best we can do is to identify his tactics and not fall for them. In the mean time I will try to love people and become more like my Lord.

[wv109323]

The lifestyle of a true Christian is a lifestyle that gives us the least trouble in today's world.
We should have no trouble with the law or jail time.
We should have no illnesses from alcohol or drugs and hopefully cigarettes.
No STD.
No problems with alimony,child custody or child support.
No DUI or car crashes from speeding.
But being a Christian is not an insurance policy against all misfortune. The Bible says "it will rain on the just and the unjust" meaning all are subject to acts of God.
One thing that God does not promise is a guarantee of long life or freedom from adversiety. God does promise Christians eternal life that supercedes anything we can encounter in this life. If death was not random then God would have to give everyone the same life span. Then no one would prepare for death until their life time was up. That is why there are eathquakes and tornadoes and Christians dying in them. If Chrristanity was an absolute insurance policy against misfortune than many would sign up for the coverage.
All in all there is no downside of being a Christian. As quoted "I am not perfect but perfectly forgiven". Within any group there will be those not living as they should and maybe hypocrites. But it is better to go to church with them than to go to hell with them.

[Thundarstick]

Another thing I have come to accept is that every Christian is not in the same place in their spiritual life at the same time! We should mature in our walk with Christ as we grow in understanding.

I'll shurly second the statement that there is no downside to being a Christian and living a Christian life!

[dverna]

Another thing I have come to accept is that every Christian is not in the same place in their spiritual life at the same time! We should mature in our walk with Christ as we grow in understanding.

I'll shurly second the statement that there is no downside to being a Christian and living a Christian life!

Wise words