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Thread: Selfishness/fear as religious motivation

  1. #41
    Boolit Master


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    There are about 5800 manuscripts and transcripts that back up the Bible. Their similarities are nearly verbatim. So records over 2000 years that say nearly the same thing from all parts of the world has some merit. The New Testament was completed in about 96 AD and all but Revelation was completed by 70 AD. The writings were by the actual participants or eye witnesses. There is very few writings that call the Bible a fraud and they are far more unreliable than the Bible.
    The death burial and resurrection of Jesus took place in Jerusalem when there were millions of people around but no creditable evidence that what is recorded did not happen the way it is recorded.
    There is a book called The Case for Christ(IIRC). It examines the life of Christ and concludes that the Bible is true. I was started by an atheist to disprove the Bible but the further he examined and dug into the Bible the more real it became. You should read it.
    I mentioned the 5800 transcripts for the Bible in the time frame of 100 years. The entire story of Alexander the Great was written 600 years after his conquests and there are 2 copies of that writing, yet mankind believes that recorded history.
    There have been more Transcripts and manuscripts of the Bible discovered after the King James Version was translated into English than before its translation but all are true to one another.

  2. #42
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    You see, T Mc D, you have been given the evidence. Irrefutable evidence, which you just refuse to recognize as such. Your eyes and mind are closed, and I alone do not have the power to open them. There is far more evidence to support the existence of God, than to prove that he doesn't exist. I notice that you haven't picked up the gauntlet and attempted to do so.

    There are literally thousands of miraculous healings on record, and they happen daily. How can you explain an x-ray chart that shows tumors in a patient's lungs, which subsequently vanish on following visits? Documented cases of terminal cancer where the patient is sent home to die, but doesn't, and a later exam shows the cancer gone? I think that's pretty hard evidence. Look into it. Are you prepared to say that it isn't so?

    Again, I ask you to explain all that is around you. No one can reasonably think that it all "just happened" and was some sort of accident of a chance meeting of some chemicals. There is even less chance of that happening than you winning the Power Ball Lottery. It is absurd. The environment you find yourself surrounded by is hard evidence. Can you make a tree?

    As stated by wv109323 (above), contemporary documents written at, or shortly after, the time of the New Testament support it. You might look into the writings of a fellow of that time period named Josephus.

    You seem to be into the definition of "evidence". All students of the law know that the two types of evidence are direct and circumstantial. Would I like to be convicted of murder on the type of evidence I've presented. Well, I'd rather not be convicted of murder at all, but am convicted of the existence of God. But here we have both types of evidence present. The direct evidence, where someone testifies directly to the existence of God is found in the Bible. The circumstantial evidence is all of the things I have named, plus more, that point to his existence. A third, less used form of evidence is that of regularly kept records, also present. Things that are written down are often given more credence than memory. So, while I don't wish to be convicted of murder, I do believe that the evidence of God's presence is established, and you offer none to disprove the fact.

    It has become so fashionable now days to deride Christians and their beliefs in God. I feel so sorry for those in your position who have.....nothing. Having engaged in this type of discussion in the past, I know that continuing it is unrewarding. It goes on and on, and nothing I can say or offer will be accepted by a closed mind. I was there myself at one point in my life, and somewhat understand; but a truly intellectual person must maintain a mind which is open to ideas that it hasn't previously entertained. So I probably won't respond to additional skepticism. Best wishes to you.

  3. #43
    Boolit Master
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    The sad thing is once you have faith God gives you proof. If you was able to see the things I've been blessed to see you would have your proof.

    If I may ask why are you unwilling to to give your life to somthing you don't understand? What is it you will lose?

    If I was to tell you there was a road you canot see, all you you have to do is step off the cliff to find it. I could see your hesitation. It cost nothing to follow Christ. Let me refries that it cost nothing of value.
    when the dust settles and the smoke clears all that matters is I hear the words " well done my good and faithfully servant "

    <(*)(()><

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Gebirgsjager View Post
    You see, T Mc D, you have been given the evidence. Irrefutable evidence, which you just refuse to recognize as such. Your eyes and mind are closed, and I alone do not have the power to open them. There is far more evidence to support the existence of God, than to prove that he doesn't exist. I notice that you haven't picked up the gauntlet and attempted to do so.

    There are literally thousands of miraculous healings on record, and they happen daily. How can you explain an x-ray chart that shows tumors in a patient's lungs, which subsequently vanish on following visits? Documented cases of terminal cancer where the patient is sent home to die, but doesn't, and a later exam shows the cancer gone? I think that's pretty hard evidence. Look into it. Are you prepared to say that it isn't so?

    Again, I ask you to explain all that is around you. No one can reasonably think that it all "just happened" and was some sort of accident of a chance meeting of some chemicals. There is even less chance of that happening than you winning the Power Ball Lottery. It is absurd. The environment you find yourself surrounded by is hard evidence. Can you make a tree?

    As stated by wv109323 (above), contemporary documents written at, or shortly after, the time of the New Testament support it. You might look into the writings of a fellow of that time period named Josephus.

    You seem to be into the definition of "evidence". All students of the law know that the two types of evidence are direct and circumstantial. Would I like to be convicted of murder on the type of evidence I've presented. Well, I'd rather not be convicted of murder at all, but am convicted of the existence of God. But here we have both types of evidence present. The direct evidence, where someone testifies directly to the existence of God is found in the Bible. The circumstantial evidence is all of the things I have named, plus more, that point to his existence. A third, less used form of evidence is that of regularly kept records, also present. Things that are written down are often given more credence than memory. So, while I don't wish to be convicted of murder, I do believe that the evidence of God's presence is established, and you offer none to disprove the fact.

    It has become so fashionable now days to deride Christians and their beliefs in God. I feel so sorry for those in your position who have.....nothing. Having engaged in this type of discussion in the past, I know that continuing it is unrewarding. It goes on and on, and nothing I can say or offer will be accepted by a closed mind. I was there myself at one point in my life, and somewhat understand; but a truly intellectual person must maintain a mind which is open to ideas that it hasn't previously entertained. So I probably won't respond to additional skepticism. Best wishes to you.
    You seem to miss the point. I do believe in “A” god. I am questioning with what confidence you can proclaim to know which god/religion is correct. For that yes, I require evidence. If I am to align my life with an ideology, it will be based on rational thinking.

    To put it more simply, why do you worship Jesus instead of Mohammed? My guess is geography and upbringing are the main factors, not evidence based decision making.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by rl69 View Post
    The sad thing is once you have faith God gives you proof. If you was able to see the things I've been blessed to see you would have your proof.

    If I may ask why are you unwilling to to give your life to somthing you don't understand? What is it you will lose?

    If I was to tell you there was a road you canot see, all you you have to do is step off the cliff to find it. I could see your hesitation. It cost nothing to follow Christ. Let me refries that it cost nothing of value.
    I place an incredibly high value in free will and thought. You are not asking for a mere trust fall, you are asking for a continued participation in an ideology. There are rules to follow in all religions, so I am asking how do you know you are following the right set of rules?

  6. #46
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    Sure but gravity is a highly evident testable phenomenon. So is God. Where does it come from? When the brain guy says the universe we know came through a wormhole from another universe, where did the other one come from? Where does fear in 'religion' come from? Same place as the fear of fire. Treat it incorrectly, you get hurt.
    Where does love come from? Same place it did for you as an infant - that is where the 'goodies' come from. Is that 'self-serving'? Yup. God gives us the air we breathe, food we eat, land we stand on. He provides and takes care of us. And love is self-serving to Him, as He states in scripture - He created and was pleased with His creation. We can't 'take care' of God except by taking care of his prized creation, us. He makes the rules, is not manipulated (doesn't make errors!) and desires us to obey. He sent Jesus (ONLY sinless human) to the Jew first (who preferred their rules), then to the Gentiles (us) so that all who believe (not just know of him) that He is the only salvation available.
    What is salvation? It is NOT holding our sins against us and we ALL sin. What is sin? Spelled out in the 10 (not 12) Commandments.
    Last edited by popper; 01-22-2019 at 09:03 PM.
    Whatever!

  7. #47
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by T_McD View Post
    I place an incredibly high value in free will and thought. You are not asking for a mere trust fall, you are asking for a continued participation in an ideology. There are rules to follow in all religions, so I am asking how do you know you are following the right set of rules?
    In fact, the rules for a Christian are simple IF you follow the teachings of Jesus.
    Don Verna


  8. #48
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    I have tried to make sense of the op. I just plain cannot understand it. Seems like two completely different statements. Neither of which is really a question.

  9. #49
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traffer View Post
    I have tried to make sense of the op. I just plain cannot understand it. Seems like two completely different statements. Neither of which is really a question.
    Most Christians never ask the tough questions. They are raised as Christians and the “brain washing” starts at a very early age.

    I know where the op is coming from....I traveled his road. When/if he accepts Christ, he will be a better Christian than the scores of “Sunday Christians” we see.

    If you, or I, or the majority of folks on this thread were born in a Muslim country, we would have been Muslims. Does anyone really believe otherwise?

    It took me two years to accept Jesus but I do not, and cannot, believe everything in the Bible or that God is perfect. Other Christians will believe I am a lesser Christian than they are....God will decide my fate...and Jesus will still forgive me.

    To the op....do not give up your questioning. Realize there may not be answers to every question. In the end, Jesus will make himself known to you in His way.
    Don Verna


  10. #50
    Boolit Master

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    Down through the last 2K years, when things are good, there's a whole lot of "Jesus Loves You". When times are bad, it's "You're going to eternal ****ation".

    There was no idea of Hell, Satan, and ****ation in the early Jewish religion.
    More "This is what happened when I,,,,," and less "What would happen if I,,,,"

    Last of the original Group Buy Honcho's.

    "Dueling should have never been made illegal in this country. It settled lots of issues between folks."- Char-Gar

  11. #51
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    How about someone rephrase the question so I can understand it.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traffer View Post
    How about someone rephrase the question so I can understand it.
    I will try, and I realize I am all over the place cuz most of this is word vomit.... if i had it figured out I wouldn't be asking

    To devoutly follow any religion requires more than just simply saying "I believe" and being saved. It requires adherence to a code, set of rules, morals, rituals, etc. I am saying that before I am willing to publicly participate in such rituals, I must first fundamentally believe in the religion itself. By being Christian (picking on this religion since its most relevant), you give up free will to be accepted by the group. This is not always a bad thing, and is where my desire to "fit" into a religious group lies. I was born and raised in the church and am better for it, but that is not the stated purpose of the church. you are to win souls to avoid eternal ****ation. Thats quite the leap from simply being a good person, and is where my requirement for proof rears its head. If I am to convince people to join my club, I'd like to know its not a sham.

  13. #53
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    OP,
    You are correct in that there are numerous beliefs/denominations but you must realize that man started them and not God. Most beliefs have started since the Bible was in the common mans hand. That was in about 1500AD when the Bible was printed instead of hand copied.
    The only way to determine what is right is to study, read and listen. I try to read both pros and cons of a subject before I make up my mind as to what I believe and what is pleasing to God. Still there are many things that I can not or will not "take a side on". I call many of these "non-essentials" for salvation. If you accept Christ and If you strive to live by the 10 commandments you will do well.
    Paul settled on what Gentiles must practice before they could become Christians. That list was 1.)not to eat meat sacrificed to idols,2.) Do not practice fornication 3.) Do not worship idols.
    After that those that professed Christ as their Savior were to be accepted as Christians
    The one thing I will present as evidence for Christians: Do you know of a life long Christian that was nearing death,that recanted on their faith? Do you know of any that said"Take my name off the church membership, it was all a big joke" Or have the saints faced death with boldness?
    Like I said man has made a mountain out of a mole hill. After all man is not perfect. All God asks is that we have faith, belief and obedience. There are subjects I have changed my mind about and many I have moved to be open minded about, especially those that are not essential to my salvation.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    Most Christians never ask the tough questions. They are raised as Christians and the “brain washing” starts at a very early age.

    I know where the op is coming from....I traveled his road. When/if he accepts Christ, he will be a better Christian than the scores of “Sunday Christians” we see.

    If you, or I, or the majority of folks on this thread were born in a Muslim country, we would have been Muslims. Does anyone really believe otherwise?

    It took me two years to accept Jesus but I do not, and cannot, believe everything in the Bible or that God is perfect. Other Christians will believe I am a lesser Christian than they are....God will decide my fate...and Jesus will still forgive me.

    To the op....do not give up your questioning. Realize there may not be answers to every question. In the end, Jesus will make himself known to you in His way.
    Yes, you've got my brainwaves figured out. And since you seem to grasp at what I am poorly trying to explain, how does one reconcile these misgivings about religion with raising a child. No matter what I do, I am brainwashing my child to believe or not believe. And at this point I think believing is the lesser of two evils, even though its difficult to indoctrinate what you don't yourself believe.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by wv109323 View Post
    OP,
    You are correct in that there are numerous beliefs/denominations but you must realize that man started them and not God. Most beliefs have started since the Bible was in the common mans hand. That was in about 1500AD when the Bible was printed instead of hand copied.
    The only way to determine what is right is to study, read and listen. I try to read both pros and cons of a subject before I make up my mind as to what I believe and what is pleasing to God. Still there are many things that I can not or will not "take a side on". I call many of these "non-essentials" for salvation. If you accept Christ and If you strive to live by the 10 commandments you will do well.
    Paul settled on what Gentiles must practice before they could become Christians. That list was 1.)not to eat meat sacrificed to idols,2.) Do not practice fornication 3.) Do not worship idols.
    After that those that professed Christ as their Savior were to be accepted as Christians
    The one thing I will present as evidence for Christians: Do you know of a life long Christian that was nearing death,that recanted on their faith? Do you know of any that said"Take my name off the church membership, it was all a big joke" Or have the saints faced death with boldness?
    Like I said man has made a mountain out of a mole hill. After all man is not perfect. All God asks is that we have faith, belief and obedience. There are subjects I have changed my mind about and many I have moved to be open minded about, especially those that are not essential to my salvation.
    Ah yes, I realized early on people were the worst part of church. That is part of what drives my unwillingness to conform blindly. I can deal with my religion being twisted and abused by people serving their own best interest, bad apples exist. What I fear is it all being a cruel sham invented by some ancient *******. I just don't have much confidence in Christianity, and perhaps the solution is to simply accept what i can accept and let the rest go.

  16. #56
    Boolit Master
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    To answer you question to me ....faith ...threw my faith God has shown himself to me.

    Look back at my posts
    The thing you are not seeing is that Christianity is not a set of ruels to follow. It's not "you live this way or you will be thrown in the pit of hell" Christianity IS FAITH nothing more nothing less that's all that is required

    once you have that faith,your life it will be changed. you will no longer want to live a life that is unpleasing to God. He will show you what thouse unpleasing things are.

    The answer you seek will only come from faith. Read the book of Romans a few times.it will tell you how sin condemns us,and how Christ saves us from that condemnation,and how we have freedom threw Him.

    Again I ask what have you loose threw faith?what will happen if you blindly trust and turn to Christ?
    when the dust settles and the smoke clears all that matters is I hear the words " well done my good and faithfully servant "

    <(*)(()><

  17. #57
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    First, do not equate "the church" with Jesus. By that I mean churches are run by people and some are petty and narrow minded. Pastors come and go. The new Pastor at one of the churches I attend is a really nice man, but not a good preacher. Most of the people attending there are good Christian,s so that keeps me going back. You will need to shop around for a denomination that fits your needs and a church that you are comfortable with.

    The only acceptance needed is for you to accept Christ. Being accepted by the congregation should not concern you....real Christians will accept you even if you have questions and doubts. If they cannot...move on. And IMHO, accepting Christ does not require that you accept everything in the Bible and certainly not everything a pastor preaches. There are "truths" that you must accept. To love others (one of the most difficult things to do BTW) and to serve others who are in need. NO ONE I know is perfect at doing those two seemingly simple duties. God does not expect us to be perfect but He expects us to try our best.


    Let me give you an example. Jesus loves LBGTQ people as much as any "straight" person, and He expects us to love them too. I cannot make that step...at least not yet. Before accepting Jesus I justified my feelings towards that group of people very easily; but having accepted Jesus, I know my feelings are wrong. I would never have assaulted them, even when I was an atheist , but there are "Christians" who would advocate burning down the homes of gay couples (posted on this site BTW). Being a Christian is not easy.

    One last item. Every church I have attended wants money over and above the work you may do to help maintain the building, cut grass, plow snow, serve at community events, work at the food pantry, etc ,etc. It takes cash to run a church. I do not tithe but give every week. There is no requirement to give and if your church insists on it (some keep track!)...move on. You will feel compelled to give, so give what you are comfortable with.
    Don Verna


  18. #58
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    Faith is believing what you don't see yet feel...so it defies logic.
    So does belief in intuition or gut feel, it's unexplainable yet you know you feel it.
    Free will is doing what you feel is right & not just what your church teaches.
    A wise feller once said...if you believe you got brains, you got faith as only a brain surgeon or a coroner can verify that, not you...

  19. #59
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    T Mc D - your title is correct in many ways. Many respond to religion through fear or selfishness. That is NOT Christianity. Take the word catholic. To many that is the Roman Catholic church. Nope, means the Universal Church Of Christ. You either realize that Jesus is the Son of God (God incarnate who came to earth for a purpose) or He is not. Most of us do not get the experience that Paul had on the road. So yes, blind (intended pun) faith. But once you believe, it's not blind faith. But why is Jesus important? Will you put your innocent child up for execution so that a guilty murderer will go free with no consequences? trick question - because YOU are now a guilty murderer. Who will give their life for yours, on so on! Once you understand, you want all around you to understand. Does it mean you will be rich, famous or beautiful? Nope.
    As to a remark by Dverna (not personal Don!), if you believe God can make mistakes, be careful. You are humanly defining a mistake. That makes you a god.
    Whatever!

  20. #60
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    My faith is NOT based on some "gut feeling"! My feelings CAN NOT be trusted!

    My faith is based on a promise made by a God, that has been proven to MY satisfaction through historical recordings (both inside the Bible and out), to be true, and that He is able to deliver on the promises He made!

    I assure you that EVERY follower of every religion FEELS that they are walking a path to heaven! You couldn't pull the pin on your suicide vest if you didn't. I commend anyone who is truly searching for the way to be saved. If you seek, you will find!

    To me, faith isn't some bungling around in the darkness of my heart. Here's an example that would fit my faith. I've never been to Seattle, but I believe it's there, I've read about it, I've seen pictures, and I've talked to some who say they have been there. The evidence is overwhelming that Seattle exist, ie there is enough proof for me. I have a road atlas that shows twisty turning roads that would take me there if I desire to go there. Soooooooo I can load up my bicycle with gear, follow the map, and after weeks on the road, I BELIEVE I will arrive in Seattle! I've been promised it's there, with evidence, I have a map to guide me, I have the means to arrive, yet, yet, it's still up to me to load up and go! However, if I don't believe Seattle is there, AND I have no desire to go there, it doesn't make the existence of Seattle any less real.

    Once again, I commend anyone looking for proof! It's out there!

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