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Thread: Consistently inconsistent 9mm load results...

  1. #1
    Boolit Master





    Idaho45guy's Avatar
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    Consistently inconsistent 9mm load results...

    Bought the new Glock G19 Gen 5 MOS for carry and GSSF matches.

    Love the ergonomics and for fast combat drills, it is perfect and points extremely well for me.

    However, for GSSF indoor matches, where I have to put 10 rounds inside of an 8" circle at 25yds in 15 seconds, accuracy is paramount. My first GSSF gun was a G29 in 10mm, since that was the only Glock I owned. It will do consistent sub 2" groups at 25yds and the occasional 1" group. I bought a G35 just for GSSF and it will do consistent 2" or better groups at 25yds.

    But this G19 is consistently inconsistent in it's groups. One load will do 2" or so, and then vary wildly from 2" to 5".

    I tried ten new recipes today and around 200 rounds.

    I really hate loading for the 9mm as it seems much more finicky and seems impossible to nail down trends. With the 10mm and .40 S&W, I can easily tell which gun prefers heavier bullets and which prefers lighter bullets. With this gun, I was sure it preferred lighter bullets, but then today a 147gr XTP delivered a decent group once or twice, then awful groups later. Same load.

    Searched for the most popular and accurate 9mm loads online, and they were mediocre in my gun. But then I'd get a good 2" group and the next two attempts would double that size.

    The pistol is equipped with a red dot sight, and that really helped tighten things up. I also installed a Glock (-) connector and now the trigger pull is a decent 4.5lb pull.

    Not sure if the inconsistency is in my booger hook, aging eyes, or somewhere in the loads.

    The new Gen 5 Glocks have pretty shallow throats, so I've run into issues getting them to plunk with some round nose profiles in larger bullet weights without seating them pretty deep.

    But I've also tried 5 different powders, 10 or so different bullets, and various charges and OALs. I still have no idea what the gun likes!!

    I thought about maybe decreasing the distance from 25yds to 20yds to see if that would help eliminate the human error factor. Thoughts?

    Here are some of the consistently inconsistent results...

    147gr XTPs...

    Attachment 233991

    Attachment 233992

    Attachment 233993

    124gr XTPs...

    Attachment 233994
    "Luck don't live out here. Wolves don't kill the unlucky deer; they kill the weak ones..." Jeremy Renner in Wind River

  2. #2
    Boolit Master





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    RMR bullets are made locally and I shoot in matches with the owner. I desperately wanted my gun to like his bullets, but not so far...

    Attachment 233995

    Attachment 233996

    Attachment 233997

    Attachment 233998

    Attachment 233999
    "Luck don't live out here. Wolves don't kill the unlucky deer; they kill the weak ones..." Jeremy Renner in Wind River

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Have you tried getting a baseline of accuracy with a run of factory jacketed rounds from the same maker & not just your reloads?
    IF nothing else, that might narrow things down to allow you to find out if it is the reloads, your aging eyes or "booger hook".

    If you find that you don't consistently get better with a batch of jacketed factory loads (from the same "lot" to establish some fairly good "consistency" in the projectiles), then, you can start looking at your eyes, trigger control or other factors.
    Basically removing one of the factors/variables that you might be having(ammo), to find the main cause. then work on another til you finally find out.

    Ya never know, it might be a bit of all of it too.

    Hey, just trying to help out. Take it or leave it... LOL


    G'Luck & I hope ya get it figured out!
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  4. #4
    Boolit Master





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    That's a great suggestion. Back to basics by shooting a string of groups using factory ammo. Will do.
    "Luck don't live out here. Wolves don't kill the unlucky deer; they kill the weak ones..." Jeremy Renner in Wind River

  5. #5
    Boolit Master Wheelguns 1961's Avatar
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    I have a pistol rest that I use during load development. It is not the greatest, but it does lessen the variables to an extent.
    Due to the price of primers, warning shots will no longer be given!

  6. #6
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    I've been using the same rest and range for the past five years. It's my dad's private range. just
    "Luck don't live out here. Wolves don't kill the unlucky deer; they kill the weak ones..." Jeremy Renner in Wind River

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    I don't own a Glock so can't comment on that particular weapon. I do own several different 9mm handguns and can comment generally on the cartridge. My 9mm weapons are Beretta, Taurus, Springfield Armory, and S&W.
    I always start with a run of factory to see what the gun will do with that ammo and use that as a baseline.
    I work with my reloads to see how close I can come or better the factory groups.
    In most of my 9mm guns, I have found that they prefer full power, or nearly so, for best accuracy. Lighter loads will function the weapon but seldom produce really good accuracy.
    I have a couple of cast loads that will equal the accuracy of factory loads. They are also nearly full power.
    I use a lot of RMR bullets and have excellent accuracy with them across all my 9mm guns. I use both their FMJ and plated rounds. The FMJ seem to perform slightly better.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    I assume your first sizing die just resizes and deprimes the case. Does the second die re-expand the case and then bell the case mouth? If the second die is re-expanding the case, I'd suggest reducing the die's re-expanding stem diameter so that the re-expanding portion drops into a sized case without resistance. In other words, the second die should only bell the case and not re-expand the case. I've found that reloading die stem re-expanding diameters vary significantly between different manufacturers. Likewise, I've found that when the bullet re-expands the case, instead of the re-expanding stem, the bullet is more tightly/consistently held to allow proper pressure build-up. A tight case grip on the bullet reduces bullet movement in the case, as the round enters the barrel chamber, and pressures(round to round) are more consistent for better accuracy. Variations in case grip on the bullet and/or bullet movement in the case , during round chambering, causes different peak pressures for each round which in turn affects accuracy.

    Best regards,

    CJR

  9. #9
    Boolit Master Dan Cash's Avatar
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    Have you considered a faulty barrel/slide/frame mating. It sure looks like a problem with the pistol more than ammo, unfortunately, it is also intermittent so very hard to find.
    To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, the trouble with many shooting experts is not that they're ignorant; its just that they know so much that isn't so.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJR View Post
    I assume your first sizing die just resizes and deprimes the case. Does the second die re-expand the case and then bell the case mouth? If the second die is re-expanding the case, I'd suggest reducing the die's re-expanding stem diameter so that the re-expanding portion drops into a sized case without resistance. In other words, the second die should only bell the case and not re-expand the case. I've found that reloading die stem re-expanding diameters vary significantly between different manufacturers. Likewise, I've found that when the bullet re-expands the case, instead of the re-expanding stem, the bullet is more tightly/consistently held to allow proper pressure build-up. A tight case grip on the bullet reduces bullet movement in the case, as the round enters the barrel chamber, and pressures(round to round) are more consistent for better accuracy. Variations in case grip on the bullet and/or bullet movement in the case , during round chambering, causes different peak pressures for each round which in turn affects accuracy.

    Best regards,

    CJR
    I was just using random brass and I think that's a big part of the problem. For my 10mm and .40 loads, I always sort the brass and use the same brand. I haven't been doing that for the 9mm loads. Newbie mistake. Noticed that some bullets were seating easier than others. Duh.
    "Luck don't live out here. Wolves don't kill the unlucky deer; they kill the weak ones..." Jeremy Renner in Wind River

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJR View Post
    I assume your first sizing die just resizes and deprimes the case. Does the second die re-expand the case and then bell the case mouth? If the second die is re-expanding the case, I'd suggest reducing the die's re-expanding stem diameter so that the re-expanding portion drops into a sized case without resistance. In other words, the second die should only bell the case and not re-expand the case. I've found that reloading die stem re-expanding diameters vary significantly between different manufacturers. Likewise, I've found that when the bullet re-expands the case, instead of the re-expanding stem, the bullet is more tightly/consistently held to allow proper pressure build-up. A tight case grip on the bullet reduces bullet movement in the case, as the round enters the barrel chamber, and pressures(round to round) are more consistent for better accuracy. Variations in case grip on the bullet and/or bullet movement in the case , during round chambering, causes different peak pressures for each round which in turn affects accuracy.

    Best regards,

    CJR
    I was just using random brass and I think that's a big part of the problem. For my 10mm and .40 loads, I always sort the brass and use the same brand. I haven't been doing that for the 9mm loads. Newbie mistake. Noticed that some bullets were seating easier than others. Duh.
    "Luck don't live out here. Wolves don't kill the unlucky deer; they kill the weak ones..." Jeremy Renner in Wind River

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy
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    I would definitely sort 9mm brass and only keep major head stamps and remove any wild cards and nato brass. That was never a problem for me with other calibers (40,45,10mm,38/357) but it does make a difference with 9mm. There is a lot packed into that small 9mm cartridge and you dont get a lot of room for error so any inconsistencies will have more effect on 9mm then lets say 45acp.

    I shoot RMR 124gr FMJs with no issues but I'm still trying to tighten up my cast 9mms myself. 9mm is challenging to say the least.

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy KVO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Cash View Post
    Have you considered a faulty barrel/slide/frame mating. It sure looks like a problem with the pistol more than ammo, unfortunately, it is also intermittent so very hard to find.
    ^ This seems possible given the number of loads you've tried and proven ability with other pistols of this type. I'd compare the slide to barrel hood fit compared to your other pistols and see if it is significantly looser. I had a Glock 22 that was very sloppy, shot 5-8" at 25yd no matter what I tried- until I replaced the barrel. Also look at the crown, a small touch up with some lapping compound may help if there is a burr or otherwise damaged. Also see if the chamber and throat appear to be concentric with the bore. I had a poorly performing aftermarket barrel from KKM with a visually off center chamber. Exchanged for a new one and groups shrank considerably.

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master


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    If you figure it out let us know. I was helping someone with the same problem on a Glock 34. It too helped greatly to put on a red dot sight. The original sights were shifting each shot. Still, groups were up to 6". Visibly there was nothing wrong with the barrel, however, I am not familiar with Glock. After trying dozens of factory loads, even went so far as loading .357" bullets, still nothing. Glock requires the pistol be looked at by one of their local Armorers, so it can be verified that it needs to be sent to the factory, or can be repaired on the spot. He took it to a "Glock Armorer" who muttered something about a locking block. They then went into his garage, and shot free hand from WAY back, a massive 21 feet, and the expert shot a 5+" group. Claiming his $3000 S&W could do no better, the Armorer refused to repair it. That pistol got sold before we could figure out what was wrong.

    I've got nothing against Glock, just the egg head who shot that gun and thinks it's ok. My recommendation is to check that it is locking up the same every time. How that is done, I'm not quite sure.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    If you figure it out let us know. I was helping someone with the same problem on a Glock 34. It too helped greatly to put on a red dot sight. The original sights were shifting each shot. Still, groups were up to 6". Visibly there was nothing wrong with the barrel, however, I am not familiar with Glock. After trying dozens of factory loads, even went so far as loading .357" bullets, still nothing. Glock requires the pistol be looked at by one of their local Armorers, so it can be verified that it needs to be sent to the factory, or can be repaired on the spot. He took it to a "Glock Armorer" who muttered something about a locking block. They then went into his garage, and shot free hand from WAY back, a massive 21 feet, and the expert shot a 5+" group. Claiming his $3000 S&W could do no better, the Armorer refused to repair it. That pistol got sold before we could figure out what was wrong.

    I've got nothing against Glock, just the egg head who shot that gun and thinks it's ok. My recommendation is to check that it is locking up the same every time. How that is done, I'm not quite sure.
    It's funny, I moved from Glocks 20 years ago and found I liked other platforms better. Loved the S&W M&P series. Then I moved back to Idaho and was looking for a woods carry pistol and the Glock G29 10mm seemed perfect. Bought one and was amazed at the great trigger and accuracy. So I bought another Glock; a Gen 4 G19 and got rid of it after struggling with mediocre groups. Bought a G35 for GSSF matches and it's not bad, but not as good as my G29...

    Attachment 234038
    "Luck don't live out here. Wolves don't kill the unlucky deer; they kill the weak ones..." Jeremy Renner in Wind River

  16. #16
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    Glocks are frustrating in that they are pretty inconsistent in their accuracy and trigger feel. I was told that the Gen 5 Glocks are much better in those regards. My Gen 5 came with a decent trigger, and is teasing me with the occasional impressive group. So I think I just need to tighten things up a bit with my reloads and learn to be happy with around 2" at 25yds.
    "Luck don't live out here. Wolves don't kill the unlucky deer; they kill the weak ones..." Jeremy Renner in Wind River

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master
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    It is a Glock and not an accurized 1911. Expecting much under 3” at 25 yards is unrealistic IMO.

    6” groups are unacceptable. I would go to the Glock forum to seek help with evaluating the pistol after shooting a few different factory loads to establish a base line. If it shoots 6” groups with factory ammunition, there is a gun problem.

    The wide variation in groups points to inconsistent return to battery.....as my best guess.
    Don Verna


  18. #18
    Boolit Master Drm50's Avatar
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    Several years back I got a Browning HP Comp model, FN. I have loaded 9mm once in a while but always with jacketed bullets. 9mm was so cheap that it was easier to buy ammo and about as cheap as loading it. This HP
    shots extremely well so I bought 3 molds and several different cast bullets and decided I was going to come up
    with a killer target load. When through all these bullets and some 38/357 bullets. Fooled with different size dies and didn't find a cast load that would outshoot plain old Win white box. Several guys have had me try their pet
    9mm loads. They are shooting Glocks, M&Ps and stuff like that. None of these loads shot in my pistol. I never did find a cast load for it. I shoot my own cast in 32 thru 45 in revolvers and they are target quality loads. Several of my S&Ws have never had a jacketed bullet in them. So it's not like it's my 1st rodeo but this HP has
    me buffaloed on cast.

  19. #19
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    I couldn't hit where I was aiming with my Glock 19. Everything was low and left, no matter what I did. The Glock 17 was very accurate, but I ended up getting rid of all of my Glocks and got a CZ 75 SP01. It shoots .357 diameter boolits quite well, even at 25 yards. .358 boolits not so much. After two or three it will jam. I will always say that the Glocks shot whatever I feed them without hesitation, jams or stovepipes. Buy I just couldn't get used to the striker fired pistol and the long reset. My little Ruger LC9s Pro is striker fired, but has a really light trigger, and is great. The only other striker fired pistol is a Ruger 22/45, and it's in a class by itself.
    Tom
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    Did I ever mention that I hate to trim brass?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drm50 View Post
    Several years back I got a Browning HP Comp model, FN. I have loaded 9mm once in a while but always with jacketed bullets. 9mm was so cheap that it was easier to buy ammo and about as cheap as loading it. This HP
    shots extremely well so I bought 3 molds and several different cast bullets and decided I was going to come up
    with a killer target load. When through all these bullets and some 38/357 bullets. Fooled with different size dies and didn't find a cast load that would outshoot plain old Win white box. Several guys have had me try their pet
    9mm loads. They are shooting Glocks, M&Ps and stuff like that. None of these loads shot in my pistol. I never did find a cast load for it. I shoot my own cast in 32 thru 45 in revolvers and they are target quality loads. Several of my S&Ws have never had a jacketed bullet in them. So it's not like it's my 1st rodeo but this HP has
    me buffaloed on cast.
    I've slugged the barrels on a couple of Browning High Powers and they both slugged at .358". You might try slugging that High Power barrel and see what it actually is, diameter wise.

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check