Still on about Reloader 7 and the 44-40 cartridge.

[Savvy Jack]

Savvy Jack,
Thanks for that. Sounds like a bit of time/work to get it all together. But I suppose when done its all there for evermore. I'm going to have to settle for just a chronograph.

Bob

Bob, go here: https://www.44winchestercenterfireca...essure-testing scroll down to the bottom of the page. After you download and open...go to the "copy" page. There I have the loads in order by Powder......notice the RL-7 velocities and pressures. Judging a load by velocity (just a chronograph) can be mis-leading with this cartridge. It's hard to load to hurt a Marlin 94, Winchester 92'....but it could hurt a Winchester 73', Henry or Winchester 66'. I wish I had the money and heart to purposefully blow up a 73'....I would test one! We all know the 73' replicas are chambered for the 44 Magnum with no apparent changes to the guts and use modern materials rather than the old 73' weak metals.

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

SavvyJack,

The listed Hercules load with 240-grain lead bullet results in about 1/8" compression, about the same as when loading black.

What pressure data have you measured which contra-indicates compression of RL7 as that has not been my experience.

Now TrailBoss is entirely another matter. Compressing it is a recipe to blow up your gun!

I know that I was most likely using different components , but......Starline Brass and a Desperado Cowboy bullets 240 grains .430 bullet crimped in the crimp groove, with the max load listed in my Lee and RCBS manuals of 23.5 grains of Reloader 7 is about a 95% capacity load.

[Savvy Jack]

Attachment 233785
Attachment 233797

As can be seen with the bullets in the photo, the seating depth can dictate how much powder will fit for a case capacity load. Although not photographed, some 240gr bullets do sit deeper/shallower than others. Notice for some reason that the Lee 3 Crimp (correct name unknown) bullet has a much high pressure than other 240's with similar loads. However, I have also tested black powder semi-balloon head cases with 200gr bullets and get 14,000psi!!! IF this is correct, I sad IF....any RL-7 sould be good for the 73's. I plan on testing more of those too!!

[BobInAus]

Hey Savvy Jack,
Thanks heaps for all that info. I can see I will get a lot out of the pressure testing page. Where you say: "However, I have also tested black powder semi-balloon head cases with 200gr bullets and get 14,000psi!!!" Isn't 14,000 psi a higher pressure than the 13,000 cup that is safe in the '73?
Thanks again, Bob.

[BobInAus]

Hey Savvy Jack,

Do we know which replica Comp. makes the 44 magnum in the 1873?

Regards
Bob.

[Outpost75]

Hey Savvy Jack,
Thanks heaps for all that info. I can see I will get a lot out of the pressure testing page. Where you say: "However, I have also tested black powder semi-balloon head cases with 200gr bullets and get 14,000psi!!!" Isn't 14,000 psi a higher pressure than the 13,000 cup that is safe in the '73?
Thanks again, Bob.

BobInAUs

Radial copper crusher pressures measured in c.u.p. do not equate directly to piezoelectric psi measurements, and the difference here is not significiant as it is probably less than the test sample standard deviations of the ammunition.

[Savvy Jack]

Hey Savvy Jack,
Thanks heaps for all that info. I can see I will get a lot out of the pressure testing page. Where you say: "However, I have also tested black powder semi-balloon head cases with 200gr bullets and get 14,000psi!!!" Isn't 14,000 psi a higher pressure than the 13,000 cup that is safe in the '73?
Thanks again, Bob.

That would be correct. 11,000psi is equal to 13,000cup in this case per SAAMI testings BUT 14,000psi is certainly higher than 13,000cup.
I need to test those black powder loads again to make sure the results were correct but those ten shots were consistent.

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...12-14-2015.pdf
Page 21 CUP results and page 33 Transducer results

Regarding CUP ratings in manuals, while the correlation between CUP and psi is too poor for reliably converting one unit to the other over a range of chamberings, within a single chambering the conversion by the ratio of the CUP and psi maps within the SAAMI system is going to be close enough for practical work. That is, 11000 psi divided by 13000 CUP is 0.846 psi/CUP for the 44-40, so you can take the CUP numbers in the Lyman Manual and multiply them by 0.846 to get a reasonable expectation of psi. Conversely, dividing psi by that same number will come close to CUP." ~Uncklenick

I have not tested that theory with my strain gauge results yet!!!

[ReloaderFred]

Hey Savvy Jack,

Do we know which replica Comp. makes the 44 magnum in the 1873?

Regards
Bob.

BobInAus,

Uberti makes the '73 in .44 Magnum.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Savvy Jack]

Sorry I'm late!!

https://www.uberti-usa.com/1873-rifle-and-carbine

[BobInAus]

Does anyone know if the Lee Shaver toggle / link pins could be used in an 1873 (circa 1892) to increase the pressure (within reason of course) of the 44-40 with heavy bullets?
Bob.

[indian joe]

Does anyone know if the Lee Shaver toggle / link pins could be used in an 1873 (circa 1892) to increase the pressure (within reason of course) of the 44-40 with heavy bullets?
Bob.

That still leaves the soft iron frame - soft steel bolt - soft barrel - 120 years worth of wear and metal fatigue ----why risk it for 150FPS ??

[Outpost75]

That still leaves the soft iron frame - soft steel bolt - soft barrel - 120 years worth of wear and metal fatigue ----why risk it for 150FPS ??

Heed this man's advice. He knows of what he speaks!

[Savvy Jack]

[BobInAus]

How about in an 1873 uberti 44-40?
Bob

[Outpost75]

How about in an 1873 uberti 44-40?
Bob

It isn't a matter of poor metallurgy. The 1873 Winchester, whether old or new is a weaker, black powder design.

PERIOD!

If you try a high altitude HALO jump with a WW2 era T10 parachute you are probably going to die!

[Savvy Jack]

Bob,

The Late John Kort posted these back in 2016.

AS THEY SAY..... "A PICTURE IS WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS" and here are pics that indicate that a barrel has let go and the ACTIONS ARE SILL INTACT!! For you non engineering types, the cartridge locks itself somewhat in the chamber which lessens the rearword thrust on the bolt. I did a test similar to Trailrider (Thank you) and found that the case head did not contact the bolt upon ignition and that only the primer did.

From the recent issue of Winchester Collector - 1873 Barrel obstruction

Attachment 234338

Attachment 234339

The bolt is not the weak link in this case, its the strength of the barrel material. What ever amount of pressure caused this hole, wasn't enough to break the toggle link.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/ind...,57837.25.html

[BobInAus]

Savvy Jack,

Thanks for the that link. It is frightening and brings to light a lot of issues with pressure. Having said that, what is Uberti doing with their 44mag.

Bob.

[indian joe]

Savvy Jack,

Thanks for the that link. It is frightening and brings to light a lot of issues with pressure. Having said that, what is Uberti doing with their 44mag.

Bob.

Bob ----Jack
The famous winchester overload story on the 1876 rifle (which I never really believed the details of BTW) and also from what I understand a modern 76 blowup by a feller they christened shrapnel ---- in both cases the action held and the barrel blew just in front of the reciever
The winchester "test" was a barrel obstruction + overload using blackpowder and multiple stuck boolits
Shrapnel .....dont know but rumour says likely a double smokeless charge.

Have seen numerous farm rifles in my country ringbulged near the muzzle from mud wasp nests - from the olde 22 up to a 22/250 - this time of year only need to leave a rifle in the open for a couple days

[Savvy Jack]

The famous winchester overload story on the 1876 rifle (which I never really believed the details of BTW)

What story is that Joe? I don't think I have herd of it yet...other than what you just described.

Here is a 76 that did not survive...not sure why...author said he thought smokeless powder....looks awfully clean to be black powder.
Attachment 234361

Attachment 234362

[indian joe]

What story is that Joe? I don't think I have herd of it yet...other than what you just described.

Here is a 76 that did not survive...not sure why...author said he thought smokeless powder....looks awfully clean to be black powder.
Attachment 234361

Attachment 234362

you need glasses mate ! thats an 86 not a 76 - the '86 is a helluva strong action
still if you look at yr second picture - she blew the underside of the barrel where its thinnest cuz of the cutout for the magazine tube - not a lot of metal there in those big winchester actions - even less if its one of the big case rounds (348, 50/110, 45/75, 50/95)

Winchester supposedly did a destruction test on the 1876 prior to releasing it - they kept stacking extra powder and heavier boolits in (multiples as barrel obstructions) - then took one side linkage out till finally it blew - same place as in your picture - the supposedly weak toggle action held. This was the era of the covered wagon snake oil salesman and Ollie Winchester was a shirt salesman in a previous life - I dont doubt they did run the test till the gun blew - just wonder whether they told the whole unadulterated truth about it??

What is interesting is that the toggle guns seem to blow at the point in your picture (underside of barrel) NOT down the back end where the "weak toggle linkage" is - unless its an out of battery discharge and then the tendency is for the action to open rather too fast and the firing pin attempts to exit to the rear. (Some Ubertis had a skinny little cross pin was all that retained the firing pin in the bolt body)