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Thread: Still on about Reloader 7 and the 44-40 cartridge.

  1. #21
    Boolit Buddy Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobInAus View Post
    Savvy Jack,
    Thanks for that. Sounds like a bit of time/work to get it all together. But I suppose when done its all there for evermore. I'm going to have to settle for just a chronograph.

    Bob
    Bob, go here: https://www.44winchestercenterfireca...essure-testing scroll down to the bottom of the page. After you download and open...go to the "copy" page. There I have the loads in order by Powder......notice the RL-7 velocities and pressures. Judging a load by velocity (just a chronograph) can be mis-leading with this cartridge. It's hard to load to hurt a Marlin 94, Winchester 92'....but it could hurt a Winchester 73', Henry or Winchester 66'. I wish I had the money and heart to purposefully blow up a 73'....I would test one! We all know the 73' replicas are chambered for the 44 Magnum with no apparent changes to the guts and use modern materials rather than the old 73' weak metals.

  2. #22
    Boolit Bub DAVIDMAGNUM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    SavvyJack,

    The listed Hercules load with 240-grain lead bullet results in about 1/8" compression, about the same as when loading black.

    What pressure data have you measured which contra-indicates compression of RL7 as that has not been my experience.

    Now TrailBoss is entirely another matter. Compressing it is a recipe to blow up your gun!
    I know that I was most likely using different components , but......Starline Brass and a Desperado Cowboy bullets 240 grains .430 bullet crimped in the crimp groove, with the max load listed in my Lee and RCBS manuals of 23.5 grains of Reloader 7 is about a 95% capacity load.

  3. #23
    Boolit Buddy Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savvy Jack View Post
    As can be seen with the bullets in the photo, the seating depth can dictate how much powder will fit for a case capacity load. Although not photographed, some 240gr bullets do sit deeper/shallower than others. Notice for some reason that the Lee 3 Crimp (correct name unknown) bullet has a much high pressure than other 240's with similar loads. However, I have also tested black powder semi-balloon head cases with 200gr bullets and get 14,000psi!!! IF this is correct, I sad IF....any RL-7 sould be good for the 73's. I plan on testing more of those too!!

  4. #24
    Boolit Bub BobInAus's Avatar
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    Hey Savvy Jack,
    Thanks heaps for all that info. I can see I will get a lot out of the pressure testing page. Where you say: "However, I have also tested black powder semi-balloon head cases with 200gr bullets and get 14,000psi!!!" Isn't 14,000 psi a higher pressure than the 13,000 cup that is safe in the '73?
    Thanks again, Bob.

  5. #25
    Boolit Bub BobInAus's Avatar
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    Hey Savvy Jack,

    Do we know which replica Comp. makes the 44 magnum in the 1873?

    Regards
    Bob.

  6. #26
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobInAus View Post
    Hey Savvy Jack,
    Thanks heaps for all that info. I can see I will get a lot out of the pressure testing page. Where you say: "However, I have also tested black powder semi-balloon head cases with 200gr bullets and get 14,000psi!!!" Isn't 14,000 psi a higher pressure than the 13,000 cup that is safe in the '73?
    Thanks again, Bob.
    BobInAUs

    Radial copper crusher pressures measured in c.u.p. do not equate directly to piezoelectric psi measurements, and the difference here is not significiant as it is probably less than the test sample standard deviations of the ammunition.
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  7. #27
    Boolit Buddy Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobInAus View Post
    Hey Savvy Jack,
    Thanks heaps for all that info. I can see I will get a lot out of the pressure testing page. Where you say: "However, I have also tested black powder semi-balloon head cases with 200gr bullets and get 14,000psi!!!" Isn't 14,000 psi a higher pressure than the 13,000 cup that is safe in the '73?
    Thanks again, Bob.
    That would be correct. 11,000psi is equal to 13,000cup in this case per SAAMI testings BUT 14,000psi is certainly higher than 13,000cup.
    I need to test those black powder loads again to make sure the results were correct but those ten shots were consistent.

    https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...12-14-2015.pdf
    Page 21 CUP results and page 33 Transducer results

    Regarding CUP ratings in manuals, while the correlation between CUP and psi is too poor for reliably converting one unit to the other over a range of chamberings, within a single chambering the conversion by the ratio of the CUP and psi maps within the SAAMI system is going to be close enough for practical work. That is, 11000 psi divided by 13000 CUP is 0.846 psi/CUP for the 44-40, so you can take the CUP numbers in the Lyman Manual and multiply them by 0.846 to get a reasonable expectation of psi. Conversely, dividing psi by that same number will come close to CUP." ~Uncklenick

    I have not tested that theory with my strain gauge results yet!!!
    Last edited by Savvy Jack; 01-17-2019 at 08:57 AM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobInAus View Post
    Hey Savvy Jack,

    Do we know which replica Comp. makes the 44 magnum in the 1873?

    Regards
    Bob.
    BobInAus,

    Uberti makes the '73 in .44 Magnum.

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs.

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  10. #30
    Boolit Bub BobInAus's Avatar
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    Does anyone know if the Lee Shaver toggle / link pins could be used in an 1873 (circa 1892) to increase the pressure (within reason of course) of the 44-40 with heavy bullets?
    Bob.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobInAus View Post
    Does anyone know if the Lee Shaver toggle / link pins could be used in an 1873 (circa 1892) to increase the pressure (within reason of course) of the 44-40 with heavy bullets?
    Bob.
    That still leaves the soft iron frame - soft steel bolt - soft barrel - 120 years worth of wear and metal fatigue ----why risk it for 150FPS ??

  12. #32
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    That still leaves the soft iron frame - soft steel bolt - soft barrel - 120 years worth of wear and metal fatigue ----why risk it for 150FPS ??
    Heed this man's advice. He knows of what he speaks!
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  13. #33
    Boolit Buddy Savvy Jack's Avatar
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  14. #34
    Boolit Bub BobInAus's Avatar
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    How about in an 1873 uberti 44-40?
    Bob

  15. #35
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobInAus View Post
    How about in an 1873 uberti 44-40?
    Bob
    It isn't a matter of poor metallurgy. The 1873 Winchester, whether old or new is a weaker, black powder design.

    PERIOD!

    If you try a high altitude HALO jump with a WW2 era T10 parachute you are probably going to die!
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  16. #36
    Boolit Buddy Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    Bob,

    The Late John Kort posted these back in 2016.

    AS THEY SAY..... "A PICTURE IS WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS" and here are pics that indicate that a barrel has let go and the ACTIONS ARE SILL INTACT!! For you non engineering types, the cartridge locks itself somewhat in the chamber which lessens the rearword thrust on the bolt. I did a test similar to Trailrider (Thank you) and found that the case head did not contact the bolt upon ignition and that only the primer did.

    From the recent issue of Winchester Collector - 1873 Barrel obstruction
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    The bolt is not the weak link in this case, its the strength of the barrel material. What ever amount of pressure caused this hole, wasn't enough to break the toggle link.

    http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/ind...,57837.25.html

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check