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Thread: Still on about Reloader 7 and the 44-40 cartridge.

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy BobInAus's Avatar
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    Still on about Reloader 7 and the 44-40 cartridge.

    Outpost75 and Savvy Jack,

    Good afternoon gents, from the very few posts I have entered on this forum, I recon you guys would be the experts on Rel 7 and the 44-40 cartridge. My very limited knowledge base comes from yourselves and John Kort. I imagine there are others that also know and have written about Rel 7 and the 44-40 cartridge and I apologise to them, I just haven’t read them yet.

    Outpost75, on 07-03-2018 you posted an article about Reloader 7, the 44-40 cartridge and a 200 grain bullet in No.2 alloy:-

    "My best results to date in .44-40 loads which are safe to use in older rifles like the 1873 Winchester has been with Alliant RL7, using charges from 24.5-26.0 grains, depending upon bullet weight and case capacity. The objective is to provide a case full of powder which gives base support to the bullet in the same manner in which black powder does. The correct charge is a full case with no airspace, with slight compression; about 1/16" is good. RL7 powder may be further compressed safely, but there is no advantage to doing so.

    RL7 was pressure tested and recommended many years ago by Hercules to provide the full-charge black powder velocity using smokeless powder, closely approximating pre-WW2 factory load ballistics in the .44-40. A "nominal case full" of RL7 provides a safe load with a 240-grain lead bullet using 24.5 grains of powder or with a 200-grain lead bullet loading 26.5 grains of powder.

    You cannot get enough RL7 into a .44-40 case to get into trouble, as with when you load bullets heavier than 200 grains at an overall cartridge length which feeds in the 1873, increased seating depth reduces powder capacity, so the charge is self-limited by available powder capacity. These loads are also safe in revolvers, although they leave unburned powder particles which can be a nuisance".


    I think I mentioned previously I had cast some 43-215C accurate bullets in 50-1 tin lead. They actually weigh in at 220grains. I also cast some 43-245C accurate bullets that weigh 249grains.

    The seating depth from base to crimping grove of the 220grain bullet is .350”. The remaining space will accept 26.5grains of Rel 7 which comes to the base of the bullet allowing .019” compression.

    The seating depth from the base to the crimping grove of the 249grain bullet is .421”. The space remaining is taken up with 24.5 grains of Rel 7 to the base of the 249 grain bullet which will allow .029” of compression.

    As these are a "nominal case full" of RL7, I am thinking of adjusting the loads listed below for my 1873 Winchester before I try them:-
    220gr bullet from 25gr (untested) to a max charge 26.5gr rel 7,
    249gr bullet from 22.5gr (untested) to a max charge 24.5gr Rel 7.

    My previous loads had consisted of max charges of Rel 7 for the:-

    Lee mould 213gr 26.5gr
    Winchester Repeating Arms Co. mould 200gr 26.5gr also.

    Your thoughts on this plan gents would be greatly appreciated.
    Regards
    Bob.

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy
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    Hi Bob,

    I have chronographed some loads with RL7 and 220gn bullets. The Accurate 43-220C.

    These are my results.

    23.5gn = 1235fps in a 20" barrel; 1270fps in a 24"

    24.5gn = 1290fps in a 20" barrel

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy BobInAus's Avatar
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    Hey CamoWhamo,

    Thanks heaps. That's real good news. What is the 20"/24" barrel in, a '73? Looks like we're up with the original ballistics for the 44WCF, might be somewhere just over the magic 1300fps in the 24" barrel. I'm going to have to bite the bullet (excuse the pun) and see if I can manage a chronograph in the new year.

    Regards

    Bob.

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy
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    The 20” is my Win 92 and 24” is my 1873.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master Randy Bohannon's Avatar
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    Just to note and compare, I have 2 Win/Miroku 73's both have 24" barrels.Chronographed the following using a 'Lab Radar' chronograph .
    215gr Accurate 43-215C 38grs. of O.E. ffg avg. 1400 fps., 40 grs. of O.E. ffg ,1550 fps avg. STD. Dev. 13.9 and 22.3 respectively.

    230 gr. Accurate 43-230E 35 grs. Swiss 1.5 1220 fps STD.Dev. 7 35 grs. O.E, ffg 1400 fps STD. Dev. 23.1

    What has surprised me was the accuracy of everything I have tried using B/P with very respectable velocities.

    This target was shot after finding my bead and settling down with the factory buckhorn sights. Load was Accurate 43-215 sized .429", 38 grs. O.E. ffg. R-P brass. I have found I have to size the bullets when using R-P brass, full size as cast using W.W. brass.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_0019.jpg  

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy
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    Hi Randy,

    I have a Win/Miroku 1873 with 24" octagonal barrel. I have fitted a Marbles Tang Sight and Lyman 17A globe front sight.

    My go-to load is the Accurate 43-220C with 8gn of Unique for 1180fps (I also have a LabRadar). This load will group 5 shots inside the X ring at 55yds off the bench.

    I have tried other powders such as RL7 and 2400 and while they deliver more velocity the accuracy is not as good.

    I did a cerrosafe cast of the bore and mine is .430.
    I can size bullets at .430 for reliable chambering.
    If i size at .431 the loaded rounds are a snug sliding fit into the chamber. .432 will not chamber.
    I use Starline brass which i have measured to be the same as Winchester brass.

  7. #7
    Not sure I read the post correctly but just in case...DO NOT COMPRESS RL-7 for the Winchester 73'

    The following loads are NOT compressed. They may or may not be a case capacity and the bullet may or may not be "resting" on top of the powder BUT are NOT compressed. I can give details later.

    I want to re-read all of those reply's again but first I wanted to post what results I have so far.
    Highlighted areas are pressures in PSI. Only the Green results should be used in the Winchester 73' with confidence.
    Attachment 233779

    I do not have my notes handy so I can not tell you which loads are a case capacity load (no compression).

    For use in the Winchester 73' Only a slight compression MIGHT be okay...like Outposts said, no more than 1/16th". That should be about .062". Black Powder loads were compressed as high as .22" (almost a 1/4")...do not replicate this compression.

    For use in the Marlin 1894 or the Winchester 92', slightly more compression should not hurt...but also holds no advantage.
    Last edited by Savvy Jack; 01-12-2019 at 03:04 PM.

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    SavvyJack,

    The listed Hercules load with 240-grain lead bullet results in about 1/8" compression, about the same as when loading black.

    What pressure data have you measured which contra-indicates compression of RL7 as that has not been my experience.

    Now TrailBoss is entirely another matter. Compressing it is a recipe to blow up your gun!
    The ENEMY is listening.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    SavvyJack,

    The listed Hercules load with 240-grain lead bullet results in about 1/8" compression, about the same as when loading black.

    What pressure data have you measured which contra-indicates compression of RL7 as that has not been my experience.

    Now TrailBoss is entirely another matter. Compressing it is a recipe to blow up your gun!
    Hmmm, this will give me something to do for the rest of the day but my 240gr RL-7 loads aren't compressed. This is a good challenge!!

  10. #10
    Double Post
    Last edited by Savvy Jack; 01-12-2019 at 04:50 PM.

  11. #11
    Attachment 233785

    PT-II Test #


    08. No Compression, bullet sits on top of powder.
    09. No Compression, bullet sits on top of powder.
    10. No Compression, bullet sits on top of powder.
    16. .05" Compression
    17. No Compression, bullet sits on top of powder.
    18. No Compression, bullet sits on top of powder.
    20. Less powder than #17, air pocket
    21. No Compression, bullet sits on top of powder, crimped over the forward driving band.
    37. No Compression, bullet sits on top of powder, crimped on top of the forward driving band.
    39. No Compression, bullet sits on top of powder, crimped in middle crimp groove.
    40. No Compression, bullet sits on top of powder, crimped inside the forward lube groove.

    Attachment 233797

  12. #12
    I have a handful of 43-215C's cast up @ 217gr

    I think I will load them up with compression and see what happens. They may be softer than Bob's 220's so the 217's pressures could be a tad higher but with the added weight of the 220's, they could be equal.
    I will try next Saturday to test them.

    fun fun fun

    Here is my 43-215C with 26.5gr of Reloder-7 no compression. tapping the powder to settle a little that would give me about .0195" compression.
    Looking forward to testing these next weekend.
    Attachment 233798
    Last edited by Savvy Jack; 01-12-2019 at 04:46 PM.

  13. #13
    Bob, what primers do you use? I have CCI-300's, WLP's and a few Remington 2 1/2's

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy BobInAus's Avatar
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    Savvy Jack, mostly WLP'S and Federal 150.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by BobInAus View Post
    Savvy Jack, mostly WLP'S and Federal 150.
    I have 10 215C's loaded up with 26.5gr of Reloder 7 and WLP primers. I couldnt compress all the way into the crimp groove without bad deformation of the soft lead bullet's meplat so they are crimped a tad short. I'll post details next weekend after I test them. Compression may be only about .015"

    Attachment 233802
    Cowboy Die roll crimp followed by a Redding 44-40 Profile Crimp to flatten the crimp radius back down to fit the test barrel chamber.

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy
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    Savvy Jack, do you find the Redding Profile crimp swages the bullet down?
    I tried it for a while and it made the rounds easy to chamber but when i pulled some bullets they were squeezed down by .001 - .002.

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamoWhamo View Post
    Savvy Jack, do you find the Redding Profile crimp swages the bullet down?
    I tried it for a while and it made the rounds easy to chamber but when i pulled some bullets they were squeezed down by .001 - .002.
    I had the internal collar of my Lee Factory crimp honed out to 0.001" under actual chamber neck diameter as determined by chamber cast. As the die came from Lee it was .4425" which did size bullets. I had mine honed to .4465" for my .448" chamber neck. Cartridges come out .447", which chamber fine in my Marlin 1894S and Rossi rifles, as well as my rechambered Ruger Vaquero which John Taylor cleaned up for me, as factory chambers were undersized.
    The ENEMY is listening.
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  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy BobInAus's Avatar
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    Savvy Jack,
    You mention;
    "Cowboy Die roll crimp followed by a Redding 44-40 Profile Crimp to flatten the crimp radius back down to fit the test barrel chamber".

    It looks like you have a test barrel for velocity, pressure etc. Did that cost much to set up?

    Bob.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by CamoWhamo View Post
    Savvy Jack, do you find the Redding Profile crimp swages the bullet down?
    I tried it for a while and it made the rounds easy to chamber but when i pulled some bullets they were squeezed down by .001 - .002.
    Pretty much. I have to for it to chamber in the MGM barrel but don't need it for my rifles. I think it resizes the neck back to .4425 I might could use a 44 magnum profile if they make one, never checked. Outpost has a good fix there if ya need one!!

    Quote Originally Posted by BobInAus View Post
    Savvy Jack,
    You mention;
    "Cowboy Die roll crimp followed by a Redding 44-40 Profile Crimp to flatten the crimp radius back down to fit the test barrel chamber".

    It looks like you have a test barrel for velocity, pressure etc. Did that cost much to set up?

    Bob.
    Kind of... I checked a few places years ago to test my loads but they want something like $5,000 to test them.

    The barrel is from MGM https://matchgrademachine.com/ Wasn't much because it was a bare bones chamber. I failed to get it oversized but glad I didn't for the pressure testing. Oversized chamber would be less pressure.

    I also got the Hiskore rifle rest. I hade to weld up the barrel platform myself and add/fit the custom bicycle handle bar clamps. Firing pin was made from old airplane parts were I worked.

    The Pressuretrace II Module is about $600 and I might have another couple hundred in the rest....plus a laptop computer I already had.
    Last edited by Savvy Jack; 01-12-2019 at 11:07 PM.

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy BobInAus's Avatar
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    Savvy Jack,
    Thanks for that. Sounds like a bit of time/work to get it all together. But I suppose when done its all there for evermore. I'm going to have to settle for just a chronograph.

    Bob

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check