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Thread: A respectful look at an old friend

  1. #121
    Boolit Master Drm50's Avatar
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    Some cartridges were just born near perfect and are hard to improve on. The 308 is practically the same thing as 30/06 in GI load. Just shorted to adapt to shorter weapons and functions better in automatic weapons. There
    would have been no 308 if the 300Savage would have filled this roll. The 222Rem would have been the govts cartridge for the M16 if the neck wasn't so long, a draw back in auto weapons. That's how we ended up with 223
    after they experimented with 222mag. I can't get excited over many of the new cartridges. If you get a wildcat
    book you will see that just about every thing has been necked down, blown out, cut off, ect. Most are not better or worse, just different. Many of them duplicate others performance in a different brass. The biggest thing that
    changed in last 50yrs is the new powders.

  2. #122
    Boolit Master
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    I had two co-workers ask me "Wutza good gun?" They knew nothing and I could have recommended anything to them. One wanted to compete in military rifle competition so I suggested a Garand, an M1A, or a 1903 (this happened quite a while ago). Then I had to explain what each one was. He listened but I doubt he ever made it to the firing line.
    Worker #2 wouldn't have anything less than the newest and biggest handgun (his wife didn't want any guns in the house and neither of them had ever shot a gun). I suggested a 12 gage. Then a .38, 9mm, .45. He bought a Desert Eagle and sold it back to the dealer a week later.
    The first guy was so gullible I could have recommended an Asperly and he'd still be searching today. The other was such an empty-headed knowitall he rejected all of those "dinosaurs" and bought a side of Sacred Kobe Beef in .50AE. He HATED it and his wife was terrified.
    Sometimes "Thirty Ought Six" is just the easiest answer. Lucky for most people it's almost always close enough to what they need, whether they know it or not.
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  3. #123
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    30-06 can be considered the tire iron of the rifle world. Its always there, its always going to work. Whether its taking lug nuts off to change a tire, or persuading felons that your car is NOT theirs. It just works.

    And as far as the 7.62x51 goes, its merely the ORIGINAL reduced recoil format for the 30-06.

    And as far as PRACTICAL usage, when most "hunters" seem to be able to do no more then 100 yard shots, the 30-06 and the .308 and 99% of all infantry rifle calibers are still TOPS for hunting.

  4. #124
    Boolit Master

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    To your question: The '06 is John Wayne and Clint Eastwood. The .556 is Jane Fonda and Pat Boone. Now, "Get off my lawn, " or "Fill your hand you son of a witch!"
    "My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list."
    Leonard Ravenhill

  5. #125
    Boolit Master
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    One of these days I'm gonna get me one of those new fangled 308 Winchesters just to see what the difference really is between 308/3006 .

  6. #126
    Boolit Buddy Static line's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hogtamer View Post
    To your question: The '06 is John Wayne and Clint Eastwood. The .556 is Jane Fonda and Pat Boone. Now, "Get off my lawn, " or "Fill your hand you son of a witch!"
    As a Vietnam veteran,I even hate to see her name.

  7. #127
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    I'm not Fonda' Hanoi Jane either.

    I used to use a picture of her on the anti-aircraft gun in training, the brass 'Officially' didn't like it, but they let me reprint it almost life size...
    That was the 80s, guys today wouldn't know who she is, some of us can't forget.

  8. #128
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hogtamer View Post
    To your question: The '06 is John Wayne and Clint Eastwood. The .556 is Jane Fonda and Pat Boone. Now, "Get off my lawn, " or "Fill your hand you son of a witch!"
    Come on, I'm not Fonda the 5.56 but it isn't that bad...
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSnover View Post
    Come on, I'm not Fonda the 5.56 but it isn't that bad...
    SOME of us take a bigger insult from her treason against the United States, particularly in WAR TIME. Particularly when her treason constituted SHOOTING at American aircraft from inside an ENEMY military installation.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petrol & Powder View Post
    The question is: "Has the reverence for the .30-06 caused the .30-06 to become a sacred cow?"

    Has the reputation of the .30-06 become so entrenched that people (not necessarily you, but others) make decisions to select the .30-06 based ONLY on the name of the cartridge. ?
    "Sacred Cow" implies a following of faith that continues despite arrival of a belief system that can be demonstrated as superior. It is very hard to argue against the superior points of the .30-06.

    As a military cartridge for general-issue service rifles, time has proven it excessively powerful for that job, but then again, the same can be said for ALL of it's contemporaries. As a sporting round, however, when the dust settled, the '06 could throw more weight faster than any of the other military rounds, and had the widest range of weights that could be thrown. That capability doomed the production of what we now consider the "medium length" actions cooked up earlier for the 57mm platforms. The belted magnums have their performance edge, but the weight range isn't there, and their efficiency sucks. The quarter-bores will flame out a throat in a relative hurry. The .308 lacks the top end, and it's magazines are short. Where does this leave us?

    When folks get involved in hunting and shooting, they may not yet clearly know what form that hunting will take, and they may not yet reload ammo. Under those conditions, is there really a better choice unless maybe extreme recoil sensitivity is a concern?

    From a manufacturer's viewpoint, you make good sales by offering things that will appeal to as wide a section of the market as possible.

    There isn't any "reverence" in these decisions, only a realization that things that aren't broken do not need to be fixed. While many of us older folks may have acquired their first .30-06 out of some respect for the WWI and WWII generations, most of the post-Gen-Xers getting started feel little or no connection to the military history of the cartridge - they'll just shop for what works.

    While it wouldn't properly be called a "sacred cow", I tend to chafe at the folks who constantly insist on going the OPPOSITE direction from what you are postulating; that "newer" has somehow GOT to be "better". The guns are still all (mostly) made of steel. The ammo is still all made of brass, lead, copper, and nitrocellulose. Last time I checked, everybody is subject to the same laws of chemistry and physics. The problems have been solved for very long time, so why are we still endlessly tinkering to seek different answers? Albert Einstein's definition of insanity would seem to fall into place somewhere around here.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  11. #131
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by crankycalico View Post
    SOME of us take a bigger insult from her treason against the United States, particularly in WAR TIME. Particularly when her treason constituted SHOOTING at American aircraft from inside an ENEMY military installation.
    Rest assured as a retired service member I know who Jane Fonda is and what she did and I don't think the 5.56 deserves to be compared with her. It aint great but it's a whole lot better than that.
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSnover View Post
    Rest assured as a retired service member I know who Jane Fonda is and what she did and I don't think the 5.56 deserves to be compared with her. It aint great but it's a whole lot better than that.
    It got a lot of men killed, and was NOT superior in any sense of the word.

    To quote a veteran from world war 2 talking about his Garand, "hit them once anywhere between shoulders and bell button and you don't have to worry about them again"

    To quote MY drill sergeants from Fort Benning, "leave it(m16) on 3 round burst, and expect to pull the trigger 3 times per attacker. And don't try shooting anyone past 100 yards)

  13. #133
    Boolit Master LAH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSnover View Post
    Rest assured as a retired service member I know who Jane Fonda is and what she did and I don't think the 5.56 deserves to be compared with her. It aint great but it's a whole lot better than that.
    Every 5.56 or .223 I've handled was/is a whole lot better than her.

  14. #134
    Boolit Master
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    I'd appreciate if everyone who put that name in their post to delete it.

  15. #135
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by crankycalico View Post
    It got a lot of men killed, and was NOT superior in any sense of the word.

    To quote a veteran from world war 2 talking about his Garand, "hit them once anywhere between shoulders and bell button and you don't have to worry about them again"

    To quote MY drill sergeants from Fort Benning, "leave it(m16) on 3 round burst, and expect to pull the trigger 3 times per attacker. And don't try shooting anyone past 100 yards)
    Except that there are lots of former enemies of ours overseas who suffered hits to the torso from the Springfield, Garand, M14 and the Holiest of Holies .45 ACP... and lived to tell about it. Also a fair number of Americans who absorbed similar hits from 7, 8, and 9mm rifles and handguns, only to come home and live to old age. A good friend of mine took nine hits to his right leg and the right side of his torso from an AK-47. Cancer killed him 30 years later, I don't imagine the bullets caused that.
    While the .223 and M16 were not without their problems they actually could, did (and still do!) account for a lot of enemy killed and wounded. Both the rifle and the cartridge are better now than they were then.
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  16. #136
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    Seems unlikely that a deer hit with a '06 will be dead right there or in a jump or two, but lots of former enemies survived torso shots. To what would you attribute their survival? SP for the deer vs. FMJ for the enemies? I think it's worthy of note that most of the US Military's last few rounds of experiments aimed at adopting a new rifle have trended toward a larger caliber.

  17. #137
    Boolit Master
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    Maybe the fact that nothing is perfect, or do you also believe "all fall to hardball"? Because all of them did, except for the ones that didn't.
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  18. #138
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    Well.....I wasn't there......

  19. #139
    Boolit Master Dan Cash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    I think it used to be, but not now. 30-06 gets mentioned but not promoted like the smaller calibers do these days.
    Anyone who recently took up centerfire rifle shooting/hunting has mostly been exposed to the smaller than .30 calibers as being able to do it all.
    6.5 Creedmore being the most recent bandwagon. Lets face it, 243 Win will kill nearly anything on this continent reasonably well. A 6.5 should do it very well also. No real need for 30-06.
    To claim that, the ".243 will kill nearly anything on this continent," suggests you have not tried killing very much with it or have been loosing wounded game. The .243 is marginal for your Illinois Whitetail. The cartridge, like some of the newer small caliber rounds has its place but lets not suggest it is a general purpose, all round cartridge.
    To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, the trouble with many shooting experts is not that they're ignorant; its just that they know so much that isn't so.

  20. #140
    Boolit Master
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    When I got out of the navy in '67 I had a 1917 enfield in 30-06, M1 Carbine and a 1891 Argentine mauser. Was 21 at the time and my childhood friend had a car so the both of us went to shoot at the old Brookhaven range way out on Long Island NY. There were plenty of WWII and Korea vets that almost to a man shot the '06 and all used surplus ammo. Many did not even bother to reload those surplus cases and many's the time I would come home with boxes of brass. Eventually the first cartridge I'd started with in reloading was the '06. Over 50 years and still at it. I still say it's easier to find an accurate load in the '06 than it is the 308. I have 3 308's and a few more '06's. The latter wins hands down in my book. Frank

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check