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Thread: A respectful look at an old friend

  1. #61
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petrol & Powder View Post
    purple font denotes sarcasm
    Or humor,,,,,,,
    More "This is what happened when I,,,,," and less "What would happen if I,,,,"

    Last of the original Group Buy Honcho's.

    "Dueling should have never been made illegal in this country. It settled lots of issues between folks."- Char-Gar

  2. #62
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petrol & Powder View Post
    Again, not talking about WHY the .30-06 is extremely popular but rather; does that extreme popularity cause the cartridge to be selected without consideration ?
    Question is, are you talking about casters, hand loaders, or shooters in general?

    Younger folks are picking the .308 in higher numbers than 30-06 and it doesn't take three guesses why. 50 or 60 years from now the question willbe asked about 7.62x51.
    More "This is what happened when I,,,,," and less "What would happen if I,,,,"

    Last of the original Group Buy Honcho's.

    "Dueling should have never been made illegal in this country. It settled lots of issues between folks."- Char-Gar

  3. #63
    Boolit Master
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    McArthur didn't want the Garand chambered in 30-06 because there were billions of 30-06 cartridges left over from WWI and in the interwar years new stocks were being made. And with WWII looming over the horizon it would have been a stupid move on his part to have another cartridge in the supply chain. So 30-06 for the Garand and Springfield,BAR and machineguns. Time would prove him right. Frank

  4. #64
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    I was a wizbanger for some years - even wildcatted some - it was a fun stage.
    Did the AR thing because I found out in the service I could really shoot the little mattel toy.
    Had HK,FAL and M14 and bolt 08's fun times.
    I have these ones you have to load from the front that's a little odd but I really enjoy those.
    I'm messin with my levers and 1903's now and see no need to go back to the future.
    I really wish I could find a NICE Krag - I think those are sweet.
    I kept my target guns so far but all the new age stuff was slowly weeded out.
    Reminds me of when life was a simpler time.
    Buy what you want but I'll take what gramps and dad used.
    A new cartridge is a bad fix for poor hunting.
    Why the 06???? Maybe it earned it?

  5. #65
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    308 vs. 3006

    Quote Originally Posted by toallmy View Post
    It seems as if the 308 is slowly trying to over take the 30-06 .
    For a guy staarting out. The mil surplus or once fired 308 brass is very cheap comparing to 3006. Back when I started out reloading it was theother way around. Get 500 or 1000 rds. of 308 even if it is milt. with crimped primers. Take care of them and they last a long long time especially if you use a bolt gun and don;tlose them. Same thing with .223 brass get while you can. Prices will never be lower. Same applies with 9mm brass (with auto pistols you will lose some but now alot of people just leave it due to the down turn in prices). A 38 / 357 Ruger 100 is simpler to maintain and tougher than all the other brands. With a revolver you won't lose brass. Once your finances improve you may beable to afford to cute stuff ,45 acp, 44 mag and mag rifle calibers. Keep it simple and shoot what you have. A Marlin 3030 isn't a bad choice either. Just saying....old guys advice. afish4570

  6. #66
    Boolit Master

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    Interesting thread! I have a different take on the .30-06. I have 4 rifles chambered for the -06. I chose the rifle instead of the cartridge. All are military surplus. A M1 Garand, 1903A3 Springfield, 1917 Enfield and a Colombian Madson, the only non US rifle. Most of the other military surplus rifles are chambered for cartridges that are not much different in performance from the 06. It helps that some military brass is still available for the .30-06.

    I don't hunt but if I did I would probably use the .308 Remington 788. Just because.
    John
    W.TN

  7. #67
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    I don't want to PO anyone off, so no 'Assumptions', no blanket statements, just facts...
    (I'm aware facts and truth hurt a lot of feelings these days, I can't help that)

    First off,
    This is a reloading forum, so it's to be expected that guys here reload (duh).
    I don't think some realize the vast majority of shooters don't.

    Second,
    I choose to shoot a .30-06 for the same reason I shoot .308, the primers, powder & bullets interchange, and there is a mountain of brass on the market for both.
    I have to buy round nose bullets for the .30-30, while I have a couple lever guns, they don't get shot much anymore.

    Third,
    While the rest of the country buys up 'Tacti-Cool' rifles, I'm quietly finding really nice rifles in .30-06 & .308 that aren't 'Tactical Black' with the aforementioned 'Tacti-Cool' rails.
    For the first time I'm able to afford some seriously top end wood stock classics people are trading in for 'Black' stuff...

    Fourth,
    If you *Think* some of the 'Whiz-Bang' offerings are just so super accurate, come on out and I'll invite some guys over with turn off 20th century rifles and we'll see if your groups are any tighter, or the ground hogs are any deader than the antiques make them...

    These guys might be old, but some of them have 50 years of competition experience and don't miss much!
    Some of them were busting varmints, North Koreans, North Vietnam regulars at distances you struggle with today, and doing it with iron sights, under fire!

    Think you are 'Hot Stuff' with the latest whiz-bang gadgets?
    Take a few minutes and watch what an 89 year old WWII vet can do with the latest gear, cold bore shots on a rifle he's never even seen before he shoots it...

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DVdqxkHd2RQ

  8. #68
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    I'll likely always have a 30-06 because it's a NICE round for Cast Bullets, nice long neck, big enough to go from bunny wabbit killer "Pop!" loads to Bear-killer loads, brass is cheap enough, and in general it just plain WORKS WELL.

    It'd be "nice" if there were just 4-5 calibers that "fit everything we might need", but, it just doesn't seem reality fits that at all.

    If you seriously Long Range Varmint hunt plus hunt small game and say Deer, you can hit brain overload trying to keep that to 4 calibers.

  9. #69
    Boolit Grand Master FergusonTO35's Avatar
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    I respect the .30'06. I just don't enjoy shooting it, thats all. I like the .257, .30-30, and 6.5 a lot better so that is what I roll with.
    Currently casting and loading: .32 Auto, .380 Auto, .38 Special, 9X19, .357 Magnum, .257 Roberts, 6.5 Creedmoor, .30 WCF, .308 WCF, .45-70.

  10. #70
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by FergusonTO35 View Post
    I respect the .30'06. I just don't enjoy shooting it, thats all. I like the .257, .30-30, and 6.5 a lot better so that is what I roll with.
    The rifle matters. I hate shooting 30-30 in a lever action but love my bolt action '06. Felt recoil actually drops with the right stock.
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by FergusonTO35 View Post
    I respect the .30'06. I just don't enjoy shooting it, thats all. I like the .257, .30-30, and 6.5 a lot better so that is what I roll with.

    i respect it too, even tho i sold(s) mine.

    for cast it is the 30-40 krag, 9.3x57, 444 marlin and the 500L. for jacketed bullets its the 20vt and 270win.

    the '06 is a beautiful cartridge. i can remember several deer hunts with it. but the '06 just wasn't for me. i know that most people don't reload, so i tell them to go to another cartridge, 7mm-08. don't matter if its a she/he or fat/skinny....a 7-08 will serve most of the game animals, esp deer.

    but going back to the '06, it is a fine cartridge. it is much better than 308win!!!!

  12. #72
    Boolit Master
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    Building sacred cows is just what we do.
    Back in the 1890s there must have been a lot of cranky old guys who swore there was not, nor ought there be, a finer cartridge than the 45-70. In fact, until a bunch of soldiers were wiped out there was nothing wrong with the Trapdoor Springfield.
    In the case of the 30-06 the ballistics lived up to the reputation or it wouldn't have endured the way it has.
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  13. #73
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    The 30-06 is a fantastic cartridge for paper-patched cast boolits. I have an older Remington 700 that has become my dedicated PP CB shooter. I can nearly duplicate factory velocities with great accuracy. Takes it to another level with CB.

  14. #74
    Boolit Master Shawlerbrook's Avatar
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    This is sort of a chicken and egg discussion. Are there so many 30 06 rifles and ammo because it’s so popular or is it so popular because there are so many guns and ammo. Whatever, it still is a very good round.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by FergusonTO35 View Post
    I respect the .30'06. I just don't enjoy shooting it, thats all. I like the .257, .30-30, and 6.5 a lot better so that is what I roll with.
    DING! DING! DING! DING!

    CORRECT ANSWER! Personal Preference With Respect!

    --------------

    There is EXACTLY ZERO WRONG with the .30-06, in fact, there several things VERY RIGHT about it...
    From every manufacturer having made at least a few models chambered standard in this caliber,
    To the cost of good used rifles,
    To the availability of surplus rounds STILL being on the market,
    To every ammo maker is cranking out several weights & types of bullets in factory cartridges,
    To loaded ammo being on the shelf ANYWHERE in the free world,
    To NOT being a 'Restricted' military caliber in a lot of countries,
    To being a very forgiving round for reloaders, (large case volume will do that for you),
    To THOUSANDS of ballistic tests available, it's no mystery what the round is going to do,

    The only 'Drawback' I can think of is being a long action round, it's not real popular in semi-auto rifles...
    But then again, no long action round is real popular in semi-autos anyway, for obvious reasons.

    ------

    I know there are science deniers out there, so I'm about to send them into fits...

    There is an engineering principal called 'Evolution Of Design'.
    There is no 'Perfect' design, everything can be improved,
    And bad designs fade into history unless they are used as teaching examples of what NOT to do (bad examples).

    There is a reason there are so many types of steel,
    So many designs of cutting edges,
    So many different hammer designs... Etc.

    Apples to Apples, we are talking man portable here...
    As propellants got better, projectiles got smaller.
    Hand cannons fired up to 2" projectiles, big projectile at low velocity equals big damage.

    When lead became a common projectile, and later to present, copper jacketed lead core,
    We are talking round ball muskets here, barrels got longer, bullets dropped to 3/4" to 1/2".
    When rifled barrels became common, bullet diameter dropped to 1/2" down to 1/4".

    As propellents got better (and so did steel) velocities increased, and barrels shortened.
    Faster projectile, shorter, more manageable barrel length, same damage to the target.

    Pointed nose, hollow based bullets ('Mini-Ball') changed projectiles forever.

    This is all evolution of design, better powder & steel, lead as projectile, pointed bullets, -- better firearms.

    The .30-06 hit on the correct combination of...
    Rimless case, smoother feeding.
    Bolt action rifles had been invented and are still a wonderful format for these types of rounds, in terms of safety, accuracy, ease of use and reliability.
    Pointed, jacketed, bonded core bullet (core bonded to jacket).
    The projectile has a lot of load bearing/sealing surface for the length/weight.
    Barrel groove count and twist rate aren't as important with this bullet as they are with a lot of other bullets,
    .30-06 has been commonly made with 2 to 8 grooves (most common is 6), and the twist rate has been anywhere from 1:16" to 1:8" and all shot reasonably accurately.
    (The most common currently is 1:10")

    Keep in mind this cartridge has been scaled up & down, keeping the same basic size ratios & design, used in most military rifles today, both east & west.
    From the .50 BMG, to the 7.62 & 5.56 NATO rounds.

    The reason these rounds WORK is the basic design ratios of pointed bullets enter chambers better & give better external ballistics, bearing surface ratio to diameter & weight, rimless case, the slightly tapered wall and neck down case enter & extract easily from chambers, and so on...

    All these features started with the .30-30, 7.62x54R, 8mm Mauser and combined to make an extremely effective .30-06 cartridge.

    I *Respectfully* disagree with the 'Chicken Or Egg' analogy,
    The round most certainly made it's own reputitation, and rifle designs adopted it because of it's merits.
    There is a reason you can find falling block, rolling block, bolt, semi-auto, full auto and everything in between chambered in .30-06.

    There is a reason nearly every full size battle rifle cartridge is based on .30-06 ratios,
    The design simply worked, either by happy accident in combination of designs, or hard work in refinement (evolution) of design, it's one of the all time great designs...

    It ranks right up there with the arrowhead, the axe, the sandwich, '57 Chevy's, cigarette lighters & the female breast!

    No one looks at a 2" stone ball, gets excited and thinks,
    "I NEED to go shooting today!"
    Last edited by JeepHammer; 01-13-2019 at 06:21 PM.

  16. #76
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petrol & Powder View Post
    TAgain, not saying that the .30-06 is a bad cartridge in any way ! Just saying that there are alternatives.
    True, but I think the best way to look at this discussion is to ask "But what if there weren't?" If someone was going to wave a magic wand and make all but one centerfire rifle cartridge disappear from the earth, and we got to hold an election to decide what that cartridge would be. . .what really would be the better everyman's choice?

    The .30-06 has been an effective antipersonnel, anti-aircraft, and light armor cartridge (ball, AP, API, tracer), a varmint cartridge (Remington Accelerators and assorted 110 grainers), a deer cartridge, an elk cartridge, a thousand yard match cartridge, and if you fudge a little to include the .30-03 period of 220 grain RNFMJ's, it would not be the worst elephant cartridge that you could conceive of. It has been all of those things in unaltered state, with its standard 1-10" twist, with factory ammo.

    It's also got a long neck that's heavy and cast boolit friendly which cannot be said for many of the jacketed-era rounds - like the .308 (but thanks Ranch Dog, for helping with that!). On the other extreme, it can be loaded to powder-puff levels for the wives and kids.

    As to the short action argument, the 150-grain-specific .308-length magazines really can be confining when it comes to seating depth in the current age of long bullets, high B.C.'s and plastic tips. A Honda Civic is fine when you need only to commute yourself, but you can still commute AND carry a ton of bricks with an F350 when the need arises. So what if the action's 3/4" longer, you carry an extra quarter to half pound, and maybe. . .conceivably. . .possibly the guy with a short action might shoot fractionally tighter groups in a functionally meaningless 200 yard benchrest match?

    The niche guns are fine, and we buy them to fill and refine within those niches, but they will not necessarily make you ready for all things you might need a rifle for. An '06 with a low- to mid-power optic pretty much will, and that's why it's still such a "thing".
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  17. #77
    Boolit Master
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    I love seeing the death of the 30-06. It's a has been cartridge just hanging on because a few old people refuse to let go (they are still holding their flip phones too). Oh, wait. I'm one of them. I've picked up a few second hand 30-06s because it's an "obsolete" cartridge. One of my local gun shops won't even take an 06 in on trade anymore because they can't sell them. I hope the kids keep bashing the 06 so I can buy more quality 30-06 rifles for cheap! (-:}

  18. #78
    Boolit Master

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    Almost 60 years ago, my very first centerfire was a DCM '03 Springfield. I've lost track of how many 30-06s I've owned since and still have a couple in the safe but, if I had to pick just one 'keeper' out of my modest collection, it would be one of my .308s. Don't get me wrong, I agree with George Patton's opinion of the Garand and the writings of Townsend Whelen and Jack O'Conner have dedicated slots in my library...my second CF was an M70 'Featherweight' in .270...but one of the .308s would be my choice for an 'all around' piece. The problem would be choosing between the law-enforcement model Savage M10 (sub-MOA @ 200M with M118LR) or the 70s-vintage M700 with its 20" Hart barrel and 'classic-style' stock. Just my opinion.

    Bill
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  19. #79
    Boolit Master
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    I guess the only thing I can think of that's wrong with a 308 is you can't just fix it with a 3006 Springfield reamer . Honestly I think the 308 Winchester is a wonder round , but I just prefer the 3006 .

  20. #80
    Boolit Master LAH's Avatar
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    However, I also believe that the reverence or the "ought six" is based more on reputation and familiarity than it should be.
    Perhaps. When I purchased my first it was more hearsay then personal knowledge.

    Again, not saying that the .30-06 is a bad cartridge in any way ! Just saying that there are alternatives.
    Agree. Especially these days with all the good bullets.

    O MY I can't believe you said that out loud.
    HEE HEE, maybe the best line of the thread.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check