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Thread: A respectful look at an old friend

  1. #101
    Boolit Master
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    Well if you have a 30-06 or plan on getting one, there isn't anything wrong with it. You could use it on any game in North America, just choose the right bullet for the job. Usually all of these newfangled cartridges are to solve one problem or another, not to do anything all that much better. But it can be fun changing up things to try something new though.

  2. #102
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    these new cartridges are just ways to make people spend more money by offering them "something new".

    its like the new super pooper 17 rimfire.. does NOTHING a 222 or 223 cant do.

  3. #103
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    One of the SOGs has adopted the 6.5 CM. Some in the military have a clue.

  4. #104
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    Creedmore's a joke - Mags and industry creating a fake need.
    Smart money would have been the 260 rem.
    Everything on the tube that touts it is sponserd by hornady
    Anything that can propel a 6.5 vld to 3000+fps will do the same
    There have been any number of wildcats with the case capacity to do it.
    Use an extra 1/2 inch of bolt and run a 6.5/284
    Fads are fads and companys are striking while the iron is hot.
    We'll see how big the CM is in 2118 AD or I should say someone will.

  5. #105
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    Here we are 105 posts into the thread.

    The question is not: "Why do you like/dislike the .30-06"? or "Why is the .30-06 popular"? or even "what is the history of the .30-06"?
    (although plenty of members have offered responses to those questions that were not posed)

    The question is: "Has the reverence for the .30-06 caused the .30-06 to become a sacred cow?"

    Has the reputation of the .30-06 become so entrenched that people (not necessarily you, but others) make decisions to select the .30-06 based ONLY on the name of the cartridge. ?

  6. #106
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    So the answer is yes and no.

    Yes because "It worked for my _________ (fill in the blank) so it will be fine for me" [father, mother, grandfather, grandmother, uncle, aunt, friends, etc].

    No because if it didn't work for them, then no one would buy it. Kinda the same reason the .30-30 is still going strong.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petrol & Powder View Post
    Here we are 105 posts into the thread.

    The question is not: "Why do you like/dislike the .30-06"? or "Why is the .30-06 popular"? or even "what is the history of the .30-06"?
    (although plenty of members have offered responses to those questions that were not posed)

    The question is: "Has the reverence for the .30-06 caused the .30-06 to become a sacred cow?"

    Has the reputation of the .30-06 become so entrenched that people (not necessarily you, but others) make decisions to select the .30-06 based ONLY on the name of the cartridge. ?
    My response was an attempt to directly reply to the above. I will adjust my wording to be a little more to the point.

    Yes people do select the 30-06 because of its reputation.

    Is is a well deserved reputation that includes "the biggest (longest range) traditional gun that is not too big" and ammo purchase options that are as good as any (heck, online it even cost little if any more than 30-30). And after selecting this gun, it has done exactly what they wanted and worked just fine.

    Therefore they made a "good enough" choice that is not a bad thing at all.

    It is not a "sacred cow".

    It is a long range / big bullet capable round that gets the job done with more than enough margin and with minimal downsides (extra gun weight is not enough to matter, recoil is ok, ammo choices and availability are good and ammo is not costly).

    If the US had selected a smaller round (say something more like the 7 x 57) instead of the 30-06, it would have been equally effective for the bulk of US hunting needs, but it would it probably would not have been as popular since other "acceptable for a normal guy recoil" rounds would have come along with a clear range advantage and a clear advantage in the over 165 gr bullet weight applications.

  8. #108
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    There are many old products that have a good reputation and have become standard products.
    You are allowed to change if you want but having a wide choice may not be that important to many users.
    Campbell's Pork and Beans have been around sincle the Civil War and are still edible. Copper is still a good conductor for electricity.
    Lead makes good bullets. Steel is a good product to make rifle barrels from.
    There are very expensive engineering texts that present all the methods for selecting materials for a new product. If you follow all the time tested methods of material selection you usually wind up with the same materials used today. When new materials are invented you will see it move into new products when it becomes economical. So you get composite stocks and airplane wings.

    Many things are compromises.
    Cost vs corrosion resistance.
    Availability vs cost
    Ease of production vs cost.
    Service life vs cost.
    Did you notice cost is always important?
    Even countries with millions of people have difficulty affording nuclear aircraft carriers. Why not use a common bass boat for a game warden to patrol in? It works and it is cheap compated to many alternatives.
    Last edited by EDG; 01-16-2019 at 12:28 PM.
    EDG

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petrol & Powder View Post
    Here we are 105 posts into the thread.

    The question is not: "Why do you like/dislike the .30-06"? or "Why is the .30-06 popular"? or even "what is the history of the .30-06"?
    (although plenty of members have offered responses to those questions that were not posed)

    The question is: "Has the reverence for the .30-06 caused the .30-06 to become a sacred cow?"

    Has the reputation of the .30-06 become so entrenched that people (not necessarily you, but others) make decisions to select the .30-06 based ONLY on the name of the cartridge. ?


    Problem is the question has been answered over 90 times. you simply refuse to listen to it.

    The problem is not a "reputation" that the 30-06 is "greater then the rest" that keeps people from buying "newer" cartridges. Its the fact that the newer cartridges have a reputation that is only espoused by the people CREATING the cartridges.

    newer cartridges are HYPE. they haven't stayed around, like say the WSSM line up, because they CANT do what the older cartridges can do any better...

    Why would a person get rid of old trusty 30-06 when it does what they needs to do with a 60% safety margin, for a cartridge like say 6.5 creedmore that ONLY seems to work with very specific bullets in a very narrow margin.

    Or ill put it this way, my 30-06 is a F150/Silverado 1 ton.. its paid off, does what I need, so why would I trade it in and get a SUV that cant pull my boat, pull hay, or pull stumps?

  10. #110
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petrol & Powder View Post
    Here we are 105 posts into the thread.

    The question is not: "Why do you like/dislike the .30-06"? or "Why is the .30-06 popular"? or even "what is the history of the .30-06"?
    (although plenty of members have offered responses to those questions that were not posed)

    The question is: "Has the reverence for the .30-06 caused the .30-06 to become a sacred cow?"

    Has the reputation of the .30-06 become so entrenched that people (not necessarily you, but others) make decisions to select the .30-06 based ONLY on the name of the cartridge. ?
    This makes me think you didn't read my posts where I responded to this question directly as I thought you wanted. Maybe you just missed it. Post number 89

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShooterAZ View Post
    Do you mean something different like a 257 Roberts?
    Sure, 257 Roberts, 6.5 whatever... plenty of options.
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  12. #112
    Boolit Master
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    It has become a sacred cow, in a long line of sacred cows and that does lead people to buy it for no valid reason. At least they're willing to listen to their elders, gotta give them credit for that.
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  13. #113
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    A sacred cow that hits like a bull! Anybody that knows anything about cartridges realizes that the "ought-six" could stand on it's own merits with no military history whatsoever. When it is recommended to newcomers, that recommendation is based on 112 years of use.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

  14. #114
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    No need to get angry.

    If I had if asked if gravity exists and you answered YES, that doesn't mean I rejected your answer and think that gravity doesn't exist. It just means I asked a question. Nor does it mean I didn't listen to your answer.

    Questions are healthy, don't get upset when people ask questions.

    The fact that the mere question concerning the .30-06 sparked such a response makes one wonder why there was so much anger.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by crankycalico View Post


    Problem is the question has been answered over 90 times. you simply refuse to listen to it.

    I didn't refuse to listen. Those are your words, not mine.


    The problem is not a "reputation" that the 30-06 is "greater then the rest" that keeps people from buying "newer" cartridges. Its the fact that the newer cartridges have a reputation that is only espoused by the people CREATING the cartridges.

    newer cartridges are HYPE. they haven't stayed around, like say the WSSM line up, because they CANT do what the older cartridges can do any better...

    I never said the .30-06 was a bad cartridge. Not one time.



    Why would a person get rid of old trusty 30-06 when it does what they needs to do with a 60% safety margin, for a cartridge like say 6.5 creedmore that ONLY seems to work with very specific bullets in a very narrow margin.

    I never once even suggested that anyone "get rid of" the .30-06.


    Or ill put it this way, my 30-06 is a F150/Silverado 1 ton.. its paid off, does what I need, so why would I trade it in and get a SUV that cant pull my boat, pull hay, or pull stumps?
    I never suggested the .30-06 needed to be replaced. Take a deep breath.

  16. #116
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    Please keeps things civil here guys....

  17. #117
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    P & P

    Your use of "sacred cow" implies preferential treatment for no valid reason. What people are saying is that it does get preferential treatment but that this treatment has a valid reason.

    For an avid handloader that does adequate research, other guns can do the typical rifle job with smaller bores and use less powder. However, you still can not beat the cost / variety of 30 cal J word options.

    Most gun buyers are not handloaders. For the non-handloader, there is next to no real difference between the 308 and 30-06. They both have a similar history, both get lots of reputation based sales, both are "overkill" for most hunters. As such you could have easily started this off with do the 30-06 & 308 combined ...

    The 30-30, 308 and 30-06 have over the counter ammo supply/cost advantages over any "newer" gun you can name (other than the "too small" 223). Since all three of these rounds have valid reasons for their reputations (they get the job done just fine thank you), there is nothing that approaches a "sacred cow" designation for them.

    What bolt action rifle rounds do you feel are getting unfair treatment at the sporting gun stores due to sales of the 30-06 and 308? Will any of these rounds have the ammo cost/availability of a 308 or 30-06 in 20 years? Just think of how many guns are out there even now where ammo choices hamper their use.

    Why would an average Joe knowingly buy a gun good enough to hand down to a kid, but with a caveat that the kid won't want it due to ammo supply limitations.

  18. #118
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    I'll agree that the term "sacred cow" implies preferential status but I disagree that it implies preferential status for no valid reason.

    The .30-06 is a well proven cartridge with a 100 plus year track record. I've never said it was a bad cartridge. It has a good reputation for good reason - it earned it.

    Does its well deserved reputation cause people to select it simply because of name recognition?


    I would be willing to bet a large sum of money that I could stand in a gun store, gun show, public range, etc. and claim that the 7.62 x 63mm was a FAR better cartridge than the .30-06 and get over half of the people present to argue with me that the .30-06 was better cartridge than the 7.62 x 63mm (which is of course the same cartridge as the .30-06).

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petrol & Powder View Post
    I'll agree that the term "sacred cow" implies preferential status but I disagree that it implies preferential status for no valid reason.

    The .30-06 is a well proven cartridge with a 100 plus year track record. I've never said it was a bad cartridge. It has a good reputation for good reason - it earned it.

    Does its well deserved reputation cause people to select it simply because of name recognition?


    I would be willing to bet a large sum of money that I could stand in a gun store, gun show, public range, etc. and claim that the 7.62 x 63mm was a FAR better cartridge than the .30-06 and get over half of the people present to argue with me that the .30-06 was better cartridge than the 7.62 x 63mm (which is of course the same cartridge as the .30-06).
    That might be fun
    Or argue the dangers of Hydrogen Dioxide!

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by crankycalico View Post

    Problem is the question has been answered over 90 times. you simply refuse to listen to it.

    The problem is not a "reputation" that the 30-06 is "greater then the rest" that keeps people from buying "newer" cartridges. Its the fact that the newer cartridges have a reputation that is only espoused by the people CREATING the cartridges.

    newer cartridges are HYPE. they haven't stayed around, like say the WSSM line up, because they CANT do what the older cartridges can do any better...

    Why would a person get rid of old trusty 30-06 when it does what they needs to do with a 60% safety margin, for a cartridge like say 6.5 creedmore that ONLY seems to work with very specific bullets in a very narrow margin.

    Or ill put it this way, my 30-06 is a F150/Silverado 1 ton.. its paid off, does what I need, so why would I trade it in and get a SUV that cant pull my boat, pull hay, or pull stumps?
    +1.
    Powdered up .30-06 is a .300 Mag,
    Shorten the case & use modern powder, it's a .308
    The ONLY advantage a .308 has over a .30-06 is a shorter case for faster cycling in autoloaders.

    With a MODERN rifle, and hand loading for that SPECIFIC rifle, the old .30-06 gets closer to .300 mag than .308 but SAAMI pressures for .30-06 are carved in stone for the older rifles.

    I disagree about 'Sacred Cow', the current crop of firearms owners just aren't that bright and fall for the latest 'Whiz-Bang' or 'Tacti-Cool' rounds, and I can name a dozen off my head that garnered the same hype and died a slow death when the truth got past the advertisers in magazines...

    I deer hunt with a .30-06 simply because ammo was everywhere,
    You can buy a light weight, accurate .30-06 rifle without all the 'Tacti-Cool' ****,
    Mount a good fixed 6X on top so there isn't 100 knobs & adjustments (and doesn't cost $1,000+), and doesn't shift zero every time the dog sneezes,
    And it will put meat on the table 99/100.

    I hold respect for all firearms enthusiasts, but like Creedmore, .300 Black Out, it's like music, there are Nickelback & Yoko Ono fans out there, hopefully they will come around in time...

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check