Supporting our round balls

[longbow]

littlejack:

I'm not expecting rifle like accuracy at 100 yards from a smoothbore shotgun with slugs or RB's. In fact I am pretty sure that decent hunting size groups past about 70 yards is a no go. The smoothbore musket shooters can compete with rifled guns all the way to 100 yards so I have read and been told. I suspect that is a good marksman with a carefully worked out load and patch/ball fit shooting against somewhat more average shooters with their rifles but the fact seems to be that a smoothbore muzzleloader can deliver decent hunting accuracy pretty much out to 100 yards.

You are certainly right that when rifled guns came into existence they were far more accurate than smoothbores but bear in mind that the custom in shooting smoothbore muskets was using a loose ball for easy loading. The military muskets used quite grossly undersize balls so they were fast and easy to load. They did not expect to be able to hit a man with an aimed shot past 50 yards. Massed volley fire was the military method... get the range and lob lots of lead!

The cloth patched round ball rifle was significantly more accurate than that but "smooth" rifles ~ that is long arms that looked like a rifle with rifle sights ~ were also common and could be quite accurate with tightly patched ball to common hunting ranges (to qualify, I have read and been told this but not done it or personally seen it).

Now having said that we are using new fangled modern cartridge loading firearms but we have to deal with oversize chambers, inaccurate (in gun tolerances) cartridge to chamber fits (read sloppy), opening a crimp and the RB jumping through the forcing cone to bore which the smoothbore musket shooter does not. He has a tightly patched ball guided all the way to the muzzle.

So, I don't expect round balls from smoothbore to be terribly accurate at 100 yards. However, since I can generally count on 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards with good round ball loads and some slug loads, if the slug is well stabilized and that group size doubled or double and a bit by 100 yards it still wouldn't be that large ~ 6" to maybe 10". I'd take that! Especially with a decent slug (Brenneke, Gualandi, Vitt-Boos, etc.).

I have shot several sub 6" groups with factory loaded Foster slugs which I find frustrating! The factories can seem to produce such consistency in their loads that they can achieve a decent level of accuracy to 100 yards but I have as yet to do that consistently with home cast and loaded slugs. Makes me feel like a failure!

In rifled gun, I have to think a round ball either groove diameter (or a hair larger) or a ball in proper fitting shotcup should provide darn good accuracy at 100 yards. The only issue I see with modern rifled guns is that they have a fast (for round ball) rifling twist so over spin the ball. A 12 ga. round ball wants something like 1:110" twist not 1:36" twist. I can't say that spinning the ball 3 times as fast as required is detrimental but I can think that transferring that twist rate to a RB in a shotcup may be problematic due to small contact area and lack of friction. If the ball isn't spun to the same rate each time or if it rolls a bit as it is spun then accuracy will be less precise.

If I ever finish my slow twist rifled choke tube (restarted that project again) I will do my best to find out. My goal is consistent sub 6" groups at 100 yards. My rifled choke tube will be 1:72" twist which his still fast for a round ball but much more reasonable for accelerating the ball without skidding. I think anyway.

I just asked on another thread for some info on the Lyman 525 gr. slug accuracy in smoothbore and rifled guns. I do not have that mould (yet) but would like one... but I am not convinced it will get me anywhere my Lee slugs and slugs from my home made moulds won't get me. Your 5 shot 2 5/8" group at 50 yards is very good and if that held up to 100 yards you'd have groups between 5" and 6" which would make me happy! I'd think those could be tightened up some with a bit of work too so quite acceptable from a shotgun in my opinion.

I still have to think that a tight fitting round ball in shotcup should do as well. A full bore round ball should too and from limited experience shooting some 0.735" RB's from a borrowed rifled gun I got several 5 shot groups of similar size at 2" +/- a bit at 50 yards. I didn't get a chance to shoot to 100 yards to see if accuracy held up but recovered balls showed nice clean engraving with no sign of skidding.

Anyway, I'm rambling on again!

Back to topic... If we can provide a solid, non tipping platform that will keep that ball centered and well guided into the forcing cone then we should be able to compete with patched ball from smoothbore musket and produce hunting level groups (say 6" to 8" groups on demand) to at least 70 yards or so. Not sure many (if any) here can do that.

I am pretty sure I will have to break down and buy a rifled barrel though.

Longbow

[littlejack]

Great post Longbow.
I was thinking the other day about the round ball being over spun as you stated. It seems to me that if there is any imperfections in the ball at all, it would be a lot more detrimental to the flight path the faster it is spun. Don't know if my assumption is correct though. There must be a very good reason (better accuracy?) for the amount of spin settled on by early barrell makers and firearm manufacturers. After the twist rate had been established for a certain ball diameter, it did no good to spin the ball faster. There was no improvement in accuracy.
So again, I ask myself, if the sprue is left on the ball and the ball is spun fast, and the sprue gets the slightest bit canted, would the faster spinning ball get out of balance more so, than a slower twist spinning ball?
A smooth ball has the same B.C. no matter which way it is turned. But if the sprue is sticking out to one side, that has to change the B.C. even if slightly. If there is more drag on one side, that has to effect it's flight path, even if it is just a little.
Now, I'm rambling.
Regards

[littlejack]

Don't know if anyone is interested?
I picked up a 4 # jug of Alliant Herco powder at Sportsmans Warehouse in Albany, Oregon Saturday for 69.97. That's 17.49 per pound.
I use it in my 12 ga. slug/ball loads.
I've used it in my 45 Colt loads for over 7 years. Good case fill, burns clean, and measures better for me than Unique. I also use it in my target/plinking and medium heavy .41 magnum loadings.
Regards

[Cast_outlaw]

So for my round ball loads I use a cork, as mine are 128gr .440 rb. my mom drinks dry sack Sheri, and the corks measure .729. I drill out the middle, and force the ball or two in. l also slice them into wafers for other applications. after exiting the barrel the cork turns to powder and releases the balls i achieve ok accuracy it will hit a 2’ plate at 50 yards in a smooth bore most of the time (could be partly my falt on that)

[littlejack]

Cast outlaw:
Are you saying you shoot a .440 ball out of a 12 ga. shotgun? The .729 sounds like a full size bore size, depending on the choke you're using?
Regards

[longbow]

That is a pretty small ball/light payload for 12 ga. but I like your thinking. I hadn't considered wind corks for "sabots". I may still have some though I haven't made wine for years. I'll check that because they could make handy sabots for undersize RB's or slugs.

They'd be a little thin walled for 0.600" RB's but may work.

I'm thinking that if you are using your mothers sherry corks for your shooting either you don't shoot much or she drinks quite a bit! Mind you as little shooting as I am getting in lately a couple of corks would do me a while! Got to get to the range!

Okay something else to check and try!

littlejack:

Yes, in my opinion over spinning is bad because of both potential for skidding and the sprue stub will never be perfectly centered. Of course a guy can file it off or tumble the balls... or do some testing with swaged RB's which are readily available in many sizes though maybe not 12 ga.

Look at typical patch ball rifle twist rates ~ for .50 caliber 1:66" to 1:72" seems common. Pacific Rifle Company runs very slow twists (ran? Might be closed now):

Pacific Rifle Co. Underhammer .72 Caliber Zephyr...

Barrel Length: 30"
Land-to-Land: .720"
Groove-to-Groove: .730"
Rate of Twist: 1 turn-in-104"
Ignition: Underhammer Percussion - Musket Cap
Ball Diameter: .705" (from Pacific Rifle Co.)
Ball Weight: 525 grains
Patch: .020" Lubed Cotton

Found a blogspot: http://pacificriflecompany.blogspot.com/

October Country is still around and they do slow twist big bores too:

http://www.octobercountry.com/oc-spo...72-and-75-cal/

Round balls and square slugs don't need much twist to stabilize and over spinning in my opinion will exaggerate any out of balance issues and large diameter projectiles can have imbalances quite far from center. My opinion anyway. That and the potential for skidding especially using shotcups are concerns for me.

Certainly those 0.735" RB's didn't skid in the rifling but balls or slugs in shotcups is a different thing all together.

Longbow

[littlejack]

When I restarted this project a few weeks ago, I was filing the sprues off the balls. Quite a tedious and time consuming job. Trying to hold it in one hand and filing with the other and keeping the file from chattering proved to be a challenge in of itself. I think I will work on trying to get the wad cup to clear the muzzel as straight as possible for starters. At least try to remove that aspect of possible fliers from the equation.
I tell ya what, those Zephyr rifles are fine looking firearms. If my eyes were a lot better, I think I would consider getting on of those beauties.
To bad we can't buy a shotgun barrel with a lot less twist rate. Eh?
Regards

[missionary5155]

Good morning
If I am remembering right I am thinking our Pedersoli rifled 12 muzzleloader has about a 1-90 twist.
Only fault I can see with it is it needs two rear sights to impact at 100 yards within a 4 inch circle. At 50 yards (where it was possible regulated) it does very well making cloverleafs. But once again it is a patched RB sitting on BP.

Was sitting here re-reading page 3 and trying to think up here at 8000 ft.. why does our caliber .60 smooth rifles shoot well out to 60-65 yards... Could well be those longer barrels. One is 38 inches the other 42 inches. And again a patched RB sitting on BP.
So there is no forcing cone, no wad that might wiggle about, a mostly constant barrel pressure around the patched round ball and a sight radius near 50% longer. Course a scope on a modern barrel will easily overcome sight radius.
Mike in Peru

[725]

The thrust of many of these accuracy quests has been to center the ball with supporting bases; like doughnuts, etc. I attacked the problem from a different angle. I intentionally chose a slightly over-sized ball and forgiving plastic wad (with petals) to launch down my rifled barrel. I put a 20 ga cork wad in the 12 ga shot cup to cushion the ball during first acceleration and relied on the tight fit of the ball / shot cup to center the ball. Worked well and was frighteningly simple. Folded crimp. The loaded shell had a slight equator noticeable from the circumference of the ball. Light thumb pressure to load in a single shot and no noticeable effort from an 870. YMMV

[Skipper]

Like longbow, I'm using a lubed cotton patch...they work fairly well.
Also, I snotted coffee through my nose when I read the topic title Supporting our round balls
I was thinking Jockey Shorts?

[littlejack]

Back from the range "again".
Ok fellas, had some interesting results. The loads assembled with powder, powder seal, 3- .070 nitro wads, wad cup, 5- .045 card spacers, were a definate failure.
I picked up most of the powder seals, and 95% of them were blown out one side.
95% of the wad cups had two of the petals blown/ripped off, on one side. I am assuming on the same side that the powder seal had blown out?
I only shot at 50 yards. "10 rounds fired" The cups with the hot glue pocket had a spread of approximately 11". Yep, you read that right. Lol
"10 rounds fired" The loads with only the .045 card spacers in the cup, again 11". Although six of the ten held at 4".
"6 rounds fired" These were assembled with the intact Helix Cushion Driver wad with five .045 spacer cards in the cup to bring the ball to proper crimp height. Five shots in 2 .625", with the sixth shot opening up the group to 3.125" .
Finding most of the wads, showed slight cantng to one side of the cup base, down to the seal when set on a flat surface. This shows that the cushion between the cup and seal is not compressing equally through the bore. Therefore, when the wad cup and ball just clears the muzzle, there is a possibility the the powder seal is pushed slightly tipped out the muzzle. (Blowby on one side) The Helix Cushion Driver wad has a very stiff cushion section. I don't know if that is a help or a hindrance to these ball loads. The ww12 wads have more of a cushion.
Regards

[littlejack]

Mike
As you stated, the patched rb surly isn't going to be bounced from side to side down the bore. Although, I really can't imagine a wad tightly holding the ball and a few thousands over groove size not being centered. The only other contributing factor for fliers, would be it's release at the muzzel.

[littlejack]

Skipper
Nothing wrong with "supporting our round balls" lol
I hate it when I do that with my coffee.
So, you are using a patched rb in the wad cup, correct?

[littlejack]

725
What wad are you using, and in what hull?
Maybe I should try to find your data in the archives? Duh

[littlejack]

Ok, somebody want to direct me to the "archives"
Probably right where I was looking.

[JBinMN]

725
What wad are you using, and in what hull?
Maybe I should try to find your data in the archives? Duh

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...d-ball-success

Post#11:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post3868635

Might be what you are looking for. The first post from the top link has pertinent info about the firearm & barrel being used. I suggest reading it first if this is what you were looking for....

[longbow]

Okay then there's another variable I missed mentioning...

When I first got serious about RB loads a few years ago I started out with 0.735" RB's on cushion legs with petals cut off. That didn't go too well at all. Accuracy was poor and recovered wads told the tale!

Generally the gas seal was blown as littlejack mentions but even worse, the top of the cushion leg had obviously tried to extrude itself around the ball due to unsupported edges. They were warped and cracked. So, I decided to add a nitro card wad under the ball... or maybe 2. That helped but even then the nitro card wads were cupped fairly obviously after firing.

So, I went the next step and cut just the gas seal off the cushion leg then stacked hard card wad and nitro card wads on top. That did it! Now the gas seal had a solid base to push on so it sealed nice and even and accuracy improved bunches! That 0.735" RB doesn't even bounce down my oversize 0.733" bore! I was pretty happy.

I did try other wad columns, one being the plastic gas seal then a couple of nitro card wads then a fiber wad to cushion the ball a bit and form a saddle. Didn't work at all! Back to the hard card wad column for me!

The other big success I had was the 0.662" RB cloth patched to snug fit in bore with shotcup, 20 ga. or 16 ga. nitro card wad in the bottom of the shotcup then a small scoop of COW on top to form a nice seat for the ball, push the patched ball into the shotcup in the hull, crimp and good to go. That is one of the best shooting combinations I've tried in smoothbore.

I prefer loading RB's in shotcups because I'm lazy and it's easy! 0.678" RB fits pretty well in a few standard shotcups though it is slightly loose in my current Winchester shotcups so accuracy isn't up to par, not bad but could be better. One wrap of paper in the shotcup snugs it right up.

Also, on the gas seal note... I have some Claybuster Winchester clones for 1 oz. shot loads I bought to try for RB's and Lee slugs since the cup is the right depth as is (no trimming petals). The little divots they have (4 of them) around the gas seal tend to burn out and accuracy is poor. I think littlejack's comment about gas escape at the muzzle is right on. I found Win AA Reds to be poor as well with many gas seal edges being burned.

My genuine Winchester wads do not do that and shoot okay as did my Pacific Verelite wads which I am about out of now unfortunately. They were a little thicker petal and tough with good gas seals.

Gas seals Are something else patched ball front stuffer shooters do not have to contend with either!

Yeah littlejack... 725 posted his combination of 0.702" RB and shotcup a few months back. He's had great success with it and I have to think he is right that the wad he picked has tough petals that extrude without shearing so the ball is a tight centered fit in the bore. Last time I tried a 0.690" RB in shotcup it actually fit into reasonably well the petals sheared (like all 4 of them!) and once again accuracy was poor. I wouldn't have thought a 0.702" RB would work but I guess if the shotcup is tough enough then it acts as a perfect sabot. You couldn't ask for simpler... a round ball dropped into a shotcup. If accuracy is good what's not to like!?!

Longbow

[longbow]

There! JBinMN got it!

Those Claybusters look like a Federal clone. I wonder if they use different plastics in different wads (clones)? From what I've read the Federals are very tough too but I don't have any. I'll have to order some. Nothing around here locally.

[JBinMN]

Ok, somebody want to direct me to the "archives"
Probably right where I was looking.

I posted earlier what I thought you might be looking for, but since you also wanted the way to the Archives, here is that link as well:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/arch...x.php/f-8.html

You would likely have more luck searching by using a few keywords, as I did in a search engine like in my earlier post to ya, though.

Hope I was helpful anyway.

Back to round balls.

[725]

littlejack,

I pushed my load up until the petals deformed and then reduced to the point that they just held together. Once I got over the notion that my load "must be tooooooo light" and started seeing my results, I shucked the comments from my friends who said that that much powder wasn't enough and just went with what worked. It's been a one shot stopper, accurate and fun as could be. My last deer was about 75 yards and a real DRT. Honestly, you'd think somebody dropped a pallet of bricks on 'em. Basically a .70 caliber, pure lead round ball -- OUCH ! If I were to do the experimentation all over again, I might go down to a .700 ball mold, but no smaller. Now that Jeff Tanner is gone, I've lost the urge to experiment further. My little system does more than I need and has yet to fail me. I'm lucky to have a Hastings heavy barrel for the 870 (which I've cut down to a 19" barrel) and the H&R heavy 12 ga barrel fitted to my 10 ga. receiver. Length of pull on each has been shortened to 13" which makes for a handy tree stand hunting shotgun. Best of luck. I'm sure there are several ways to get the performance you want. Mine is just one way. Lots of ways to skin a cat.
725