Supporting our round balls

[Petander]

I'm getting nice accuracy with a felt wad in the cup to bring the ball up a bit,then roll crimp the ball down for some pressure.

Attachment 233894.

My "nice accuracy" means hitting clays @ 40 yds most of the time,these are mild plinker loads.

[littlejack]

Those are some nice lookin rounds. I like your roll crimp better than my folded crimp.
Well, I may be getting a roll crimp tool.
Which one do you use?
Jack

[littlejack]

Also, could you give us some details about your loads. Powder, wads and ball used?

[Petander]

This particular round ball load is such a simple thing:

I take 1 oz Pegoraro factory trap shell,cut the original crimp out and empty the shell from pellets.

I then put a 28 gauge fiber wad (about 1/4 long) in the cup, then the 15 bhn Lee 574 dia (as cast and coated) ball. The fit with the thin shotcup just happens to be snug for my 870. Velocity is only 1250 fps,ball weight 270.

Those ball loads are in the first row,next three rows are a 260 grain pellet-style slugs loaded the same way. It is smaller in dia than the Lee ball and not very accurate in this particular gun,not with this wad.

The last row with five fold crimped rounds is what I'm actually doing,tungsten shot. That means many short range trips with chrono and pattern targets, I take some of these nice'n easy ball slugs with me every time.

Attachment 233978

[longbow]

You might try using a paper wrap or two on the undersize slugs. That should tighten them up to suit the bore.

Round balls are nice though I have to say. My goal has been decent hunting level accuracy to 100 yards with slugs from smoothbore but I'm still not there yet. If I were to accept defeat more gracefully, I would just accept that 50+ yards is my limit and just load round balls. I have as yet to find a slug that is as easy to cast and load as a round ball and that gives as consistent accuracy out to 50... maybe 60 yards.

Hitting clays consistently at 40 yards is good groups! Well done!

I have had a few slugs that are contenders and may shoot well out to 100 yards but not many and I am revisiting those now before I get too old to enjoy any possible success!

However, round balls are still my favourite!

When you say you cut out the crimp are you leaving the rolled edge and cutting the middle out like the "prepper" tools or cutting the end off the hull then forming new crimp with shorter hull?

Longbow

[littlejack]

Pretender
Thanks for the information. Everyones techniques help everyone. What roll crimping tool are you using. And, I am assuming you are using a drill press to finish your crimp?
The balls that I cast average 477 grains +/-. Haven't Chrony,d the loads yet. Working on the accuracy first.
Regards

[725]

littlejack

I offer an old posting of mine (go to the archive and seek "12 ga roundball success") which details - with pictures - my use of the cork wad, load data, etc. It's a snap to put together and is incredibly accurate for me. The only difficult aspect to it now is the Jeff Tanner .702 cast ball. Tanner passed away and I don't know any current custom round ball mold cutters. My attempts should work well with common - slightly smaller - ball.

If I were to do it again, I'd try a .700 ball or even a little smaller.

[littlejack]

I bought a saddle scope mount for my 870 today at Cabelas. I have read different opinions about the saddle mount from several different forums. I understant that the receiver and barrell being two separate pieces is not an ideal setup. I have taken a lot of the play out of the barrell in the receiver, simply by shimming the barrell. I Think I have thought of a way to improve the rigidity of the mount. I will try that idea if the standard mounting system doesn't seem rigid enough. i.e. large groups.
Longbow
Not meaning to deter you from your goal, but it does sound futile to ask a slug to group well at the hundred yard mark using a smooth bore. I know, you know well, that when rifling the bores came into effect, and stabilizing the projectiles of the muskets, that was a definite improvement over the smooth bore. Firearms became deadly at a lot further distances.
Regards

[Petander]

However, round balls are still my favourite!

When you say you cut out the crimp are you leaving the rolled edge and cutting the middle out like the "prepper" tools or cutting the end off the hull then forming new crimp with shorter hull?

Longbow

This ball thing is sort of addictive,I have a smaller ball mold coming...

I cut the whole rolled edge out. I'm trying to find a proper cutter for a drill press to do it exactly the same every time.

[longbow]

If you are cutting the entire crimp off including rolled edge you might try using a piece of 3/4" pipe cut and faced to the correct length. That is what I use for hull length cutting and gauges. I use a utility knife to cut across the face. Works quite well and is simple.

I just found that a 0.600" RB fits fairly well into the bottom of a CSD wad. Even if that is a flop, a donut wad should work. 3/4 oz. load data should work fine for that so smaller ball at higher velocity. I actually wanted the mould for 2 ball and Tri-Ball loads but the potential is there for a single ball load too.

[missionary5155]

Howdy Longbow
As all I hunt is river bottoms RB is all I have ever needed.
So I was sitting reading and thinking about the paper machete insert. Why not a piece of tubbing with the right inside diameter (or even a cut off piece of hull that was "well used for the form. Wet some standard newspaper. Stuff it in the form, add the RB under pressure. After drying shove the whole unit out the open end wad first.
Have to work a little to get the right height in the shell. I think I will work at it a bit down here as I still have 100 shot shell primers doing nothing and 20 or so RB's lingering in a can.
Have to work on it when the rainy season gets going here...
Mike in Peru

[missionary5155]

Longbow
Just re-read your previous post and saw again your idea about "machining a tube form"... Probably why my thinker thought about it.
Anyway I like it... ready available stuff and cheap to shoot.

[longbow]

Mike:

If felt donut wads are cheap enough and readily available that is likely the simplest answer. I think pretty much anything that keeps the RB centered will work.

What got me going on paper mache and corn meal mush and such was the thought of bore diameter "saddles" with a ball shaped depression in them to support and center the RB. That and the fact that you could make them either bore diameter or wad diameter and to suit any round ball diameter from say 0.600" to 0.715" or so and for in shotcups the paper mache or corn meal or...? would also provide support for the shotcup so no need for nitro card wad.

You are right in that tubing of the right diameter and cut off like donut wads would work too.

I also thought about simply rolling old newspaper, or other waste paper, around a dowel so to leave the appropriate size hole for a ball to sit on/in then cut "disks" off the rolled length as donut wads. That should work too.

I haven't followed up because:

- I get too many projects going and nothing finished (like my rifled choke tube which will be restarted shortly)
- I'm a bit lazy
- I've been messing with slugs more than RB's lately
- I'm a bit lazy
- since I got my 0.678" RB mould those fit standard shotcups well enough not to need a donut wad
- I'm a bit lazy
- most of this stuff (except maybe corn meal) leaves debris around the range... I was almost embarrassed at the amount of confetti floating around (and on the ground) after each shot of paper patched slugs last time out. I can pick up wads but I'm not picking up bucket loads of confetti!
- did I mention I am lazy?

As you well know, round balls do pretty well all on their own out to at least 50 yards. I am thinking that rifling is the next step with round balls... if I get my rifled choke tube finished that is! I suppose round balls in rifled gun or rifled choke tube would also benefit from proper support.

I am thinking that littlejack's hot melt glue idea might be something I should try too. That should make for a pretty solid and form fitting support. With rifled gun it may help transfer spin to the ball too with that form fitting surface area.

I'm all for readily available, easy and cheap! Did I mention I am a bit lazy? And cheap!

Longbow

[littlejack]

I went back to the range last Friday. I did get the scope mounted. The saddle mount seems to be very rigid. I switched to Herco powder, but all else with the loads was the same. At 50 yards, one group of 4 shots measured 3 1/16" ctc, on a diagonal string. Another group of 5 shots, 3 balls measured 1 3/16" ctc then two fliers opening the group to 3 15/16". I'm going back to the range in the morning and shoot some of my slug loads (Lyman 525) to see if the mount is holding the scope solid.
I did shim the barrell to the receiver with some .0035 soda can material. That snugged the barrell up very secure.
I'll give a progress report, on how the slugs shoot tomorrow. Or maybe a regress report on how bad they shoot?
Reguards

[littlejack]

Back from the range.
I shot only my slug loads, to see if the scope and mount were holding solid. I fired three rounds at 25 yards with my Lyman 525 loading . The 3 shots measured .5". One nice little cloverleaf.
I fired 5 shots at 50 yards. They grouped 2 5/8" ctc. So, I would say the the scope and mount are one solid unit.
Now, all I have to do is keep playing with my ball loads, and try to figure out what is causing the occasional fliers.
Has anyone had any difference in point of impact between the sprue being f
iled off, or left on the ball and pointed up in their loads?
Regards

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I have always loaded our's sprue up. But do we have any proof positive that at ignition it stays that way. The last RB's I loaded a couple years back I took the time to knife trim the sprue to as near perfect as I could. The three I fired were not any better but they did stay close together at 40 yds.
I do think the "ball rolling process" that makes them near perfect may at least eliminate that issue. But then I have no personal proof. But some fellers that shoot smoothbore muzzle loader matches and win some do tumble there RB's in a machine that ruffs the surface.
For my river bottoms hunting my longest shot to date is still 33 yards taken near 15 years ago. For me a 3" + group at 50 yards is more than what I need. But it still is fun to keep on trying to get better.
Mike in Peru

[Petander]

Excellent accuracy,congrats. I'll get to 12 gauge 525 Lymans soon,got some 500 cast & coated.

I also have the same mount in my 20 gauge 870. All good.

About flyers... I get some with my 20 gauge Tri Ball load... the load is under construction in many ways but the occasional 10" flyer is there. I do not think it't the sprue position but I might be wrong.

My tumbled & coated Lee cast #4 buckshot is better than I expected by the way.

[littlejack]

In my quest for more accurate round ball loads, I am adding three different load recipes for comparison.
Along with the traditional ball in full wad dress, I am dissecting the wads and using both the powder seal and cup. Maybe you ask, why? As everyone knows, the projectile has to leave the muzzle perfectly. If it tips, that will produce fliers, (bigger groups. So, in trying to accomplish the best departure from the muzzle, I am eliminating the wad cushion, to take out some of the tipping factor as the wad leaves the muzzle. I know, that I am by far not the first to try this, but I will give it a try so I can sleep at night knowing I did try it.
My first loads:
Win. Super-X hull, Win. 209 primed.
35 grns. Herco.
Powder seal. ( BPI #18 Helix Cushion Driver)
3 - 16 ga. .070 nitro wads. (To raise cup heigth)
Shot cup. (BPI #18 Helix Cushion Driver)
5 - .045 cards. Spacers to raise ball to proper crimp height.
Other loadings will basically be the same except:
Adding hot glue for ball support in 10 rounds.
Corn meal under ball for support, 10 rounds.
10 rounds of full dress wad and ball loads.
Will try to get to the range this week and give a progress report.
Regards

[littlejack]

Thank you for the information Mike.
Regards

[littlejack]

Thank you Petander.
Regards