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Thread: Supporting our round balls

  1. #101
    Boolit Master
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    Cap'n Morgan
    Thanks for the photos. That looks very functional. What i'm planning will come out about the same, with different items.

  2. #102
    Boolit Master
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    I was reading about the October Country muzzle loaders. The 8 bore has a twist rate of 1 in 144. The 20 bore up to the 10 bore have twist rates of 1 in 104. There must be a very good reason the slow twist and ball combination have been used ever since rifling has come into existence. "Thats all the twist that was needed" I believe that the faster twist rates in the shotguns, came into being because rifled bores in the shotguns were not originally designed for round balls. The bores were being designed for slugs, and slugs are longer than their diameter. So, we're trying to use a projectile ( ball ) that never was intended to be fired in a fast twist bore. Not saying it can't be done, just saying the ball flies perfectly straight with the twist rate that was designed for it.
    I had a fella tell me years ago, that you can't over stabilize a bullet. If you take the .223 cartridge for example. The rifles manufactured have twist rates from 1 in 7 up to 1 in 12. The faster twist doesn't seem to have any detremental effect, except for the fact that some bullet types come apart like a three dollar watch, if either shot to fast or spun to fast. We do know, the faster twist, (think shotgun twist) does stabilize the longer bullets. If not spun fast enough, the accuracy goes south in a hurry.
    I read some on the Savage bolt slug guns. With the slug guns and sabot slugs being designed for each other, they are shooting like rifles. But, if you was to shoot some ball loads in them, I'm sure they could not compete with the sabot loads.
    In a standard shotgun barrel, ( single shot, pump) the ball starts down the bore in a totally different environment than was desiged for it.
    There's the problem to start with.
    The muzzle loader and the ball were designed for each other.
    Regards
    Last edited by littlejack; 02-06-2019 at 03:20 AM.

  3. #103
    Boolit Master Petander's Avatar
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    I have limited myself to smoothbores. I like to be able to shoot shotshells as well. Never even tried a rifled choke.

    We don't have "shotgun only" hunting limitations here,very few people have rifled barrels.

    I might want a full bore 12 gauge ball though. This is getting out of hands... my 20 gauge double ball load is in the cup because of ball size,easy to load,too. But I like experimenting with full bore slugs/balls to eliminate the wad in between... My Hi Tek coating is very good,too.

  4. #104
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    These are cast from a JT single ball brass mold, supposed to be .735", but run .734". I'm using COWW + 2% tin alloy.

    Accuracy is from good to great from any rifled gun I've tried them in at 50 yards. The smooth bore I am referencing is one of my Mossberg 500's. They shoot good from the smooth bore 24" slug barrel, but I am having very poor accuracy from my 20" barrel w/ cylinder choke and good fiber optic open sights. I don't expect this combo to be a tack driver, but I am looking for 4" at 50 yards, or else I might as well stick with 000 buckshot. The bore on that barrel is .731", and it seems there are tight and loose spots. It doesn't shoot good with factory rifled slugs either, so I may just keep it as a buckshot gun, as it patterns tremendously well. I have only tried two factory slugs in it, so not all hope is lost yet.

    I too assumed the balls were entering the bore crooked, but it seems that may not be the entire story. In the smooth bore guns I can run the wheel weight ones through by hand with a ramrod, although I need pure lead for the rifled guns. Anyway, I get an uneven bearing band on them. This got me wondering, so I took a handful of good cast round balls, and measured them. Sure enough, they are out of round. Nothing visible, but it is there. I think they would shoot much better if they were bigger, maybe .739" as one poster had luck with. Before that, I am going to try more powder. The slug I recovered yesterday didn't show the slightest bit of upset. The most accurate loads I've found, showed upset of the ball, creating a good bearing band.
    MSM,

    This problem might be attenuated by sending that barrel out to Hans Vang for a work-over. Lengthening the forcing cone and/or back-boring might cure that problem.
    We take a thousand moments for granted thinking there will be a thousand more to come. Each day, each breath, each beat of your heart is a gift. Live with love & joy, tomorrow is not promised to anyone.

  5. #105
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlejack View Post
    I was reading about the October Country muzzle loaders. The 8 bore has a twist rate of 1 in 144. The 20 bore up to the 10 bore have twist rates of 1 in 104. There must be a very good reason the slow twist and ball combination have been used ever since rifling has come into existence. "Thats all the twist that was needed" I believe that the faster twist rates in the shotguns, came into being because rifled bores in the shotguns were not originally designed for round balls. The bores were being designed for slugs, and slugs are longer than their diameter. So, we're trying to use a projectile ( ball ) that never was intended to be fired in a fast twist bore. Not saying it can't be done, just saying the ball flies perfectly straight with the twist rate that was designed for it.
    I had a fella tell me years ago, that you can't over stabilize a bullet. If you take the .223 cartridge for example. The rifles manufactured have twist rates from 1 in 7 up to 1 in 12. The faster twist doesn't seem to have any detremental effect, except for the fact that some bullet types come apart like a three dollar watch, if either shot to fast or spun to fast. We do know, the faster twist, (think shotgun twist) does stabilize the longer bullets. If not spun fast enough, the accuracy goes south in a hurry.
    I read some on the Savage bolt slug guns. With the slug guns and sabot slugs being designed for each other, they are shooting like rifles. But, if you was to shoot some ball loads in them, I'm sure they could not compete with the sabot loads.
    In a standard shotgun barrel, ( single shot, pump) the ball starts down the bore in a totally different environment than was desiged for it.
    There's the problem to start with.
    The muzzle loader and the ball were designed for each other.
    Regards
    littlejack,

    This stabilization you speak of is RPM dependent. Consider my .223 caliber Ruger American with a 1:8 twist: By using a 60 gr. HP (which effectively SHORTENS the bullet) and dropping velocity to 2850 fps, I have a tack-driving little varmint gun. That same bullet at 3000 fps won't group inside 2.5"! Too much RPM! As handloaders we can control that. Our RB's are very short for their mass, so we must find the sweet spot in the RPM arena that gives us the best possible accuracy. My .54 Renegade (1:48 twist) shoots great with RB and 70 gr of 2F, but no more than that! It would be nice to have a 1:100 twist in our slug guns but when we learn to make RPM our friend, it's all good!

    Longbow,

    Yes, I have gone through the archives seeking onfo on the .690 RB trials. I think it was Bikerbeans that posted a comment about using a .690 RB with a Federal 12S3 wad over 22 grains of Unique (IIRC, Forgive me BB if that wasn't ypu!) and was having success with that load, so that's my next step.
    Last edited by centershot; 02-06-2019 at 06:10 PM.
    We take a thousand moments for granted thinking there will be a thousand more to come. Each day, each breath, each beat of your heart is a gift. Live with love & joy, tomorrow is not promised to anyone.

  6. #106
    Boolit Buddy Rally's Avatar
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    Has anyone tried using Gorilla glue or expanding foams to make seats in wads for round balls? Seems like if you could control the amount applied in the wad, with coated round balls, it should work. A 2x4 with correct diameter holes drilled in it would allow several to be "drying" at the same time without over expansion of the wad.

  7. #107
    Boolit Master
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    What would happen if the ball and the wad did not separate?

  8. #108
    Boolit Grand Master

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    If it was a "solid" wad like an unslit CSD wad with ball seated at the mouth on card wads or shotcup trimmed to suit the ball it should act like a Brenneke or other attached wad slug.

    I plan on trying that using 0.662" RB's which are a nice press fit into CSD wads.

    If you are asking about gluing RB's into regular slit wads then I suspect that accuracy would be poor if they didn't separate. Petals would likely bend and partially open and cushion legs are generally not very sturdy so tend to distort. My experience anyway.

    Longbow

  9. #109
    Boolit Buddy Rally's Avatar
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    If the rb’s are lubed/coated they shouldn’t glue together, rather just form a tight cushioned seat. You could also make sure by rolling them on a hard surface before loading to ensure they weren’t glued together. Just a thought and the foams come in several densities.

  10. #110
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I'd say the easiest is just a donut wad inside a shotcup. As long as the ball is centered centered in the bore and "carrier" releases cleanly that is all a guy can ask for.

    Now... donut wads... They used to be readily available though I am not sure what else they would be used for but BPI and Precision Reloading used to stock them. Not sure if they still do. If you have to make them then that is a different ball game. I guess that's why this discussion is going on. Lots of different ideas and lots with merit.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check