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Thread: Levers and group fliers

  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master Texas by God's Avatar
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    I agree with Hickok ; that's how I do it as well.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

  2. #22
    Boolit Master Shawlerbrook's Avatar
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    Mic McPherson also has many suggestions on forend fit,etc. in his book .

  3. #23
    Boolit Buddy
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    I drive 30 miles to a local range ( 15 mi. ea. way ) on several days the weather has been cool-cold , shooting 50 yds. w/ 76- 40/60 Chappie. 1st. rd. most nearly always, will be " center" ,loading 1 at a time,, do 4-5 rds. all good ,, looking in spotting scope after ea. shot ,, making notes in my book, but if I get to fast , that's when the flyers start . The heating up,, is why my thought's on the Henry . Those of ya'll that have shot the Henry may enlighten me if ya' want.

    coffee's ready,, Hootmix.

  4. #24
    Boolit Buddy Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    I am still learning this long distance stuff myself. Trying to figure out which position yields the best results. Typically I measure the distance between my hits with states. One hit may land in Alabama while the other in Georgia!

    While trying to first learn the accuracy of the rifle, I decided to use a Hyskore rifle rest hoping to rule out shooter inaccuracies. I am still getting conflicting stories about strapping down the barrel so I have just been letting it rest on the aft end of the forearm stock with the butt stock clamped into place. I try to get the cross hairs on target without have to use slight force from any direction. So far I have achieved my best results and using my handloads.

    The best I have done so far is 17-20 consecutive shots grouping 4" @ 100 yards and 40 consecutive shots grouping 18" x 18 (30 shots) @ 265 yards with a Marlin 1894CB 44-40.

    Loads are for my Marlin ONLY and may be too hot for other weak action rifles like the Winchester 73' Use data at own risk!!
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    Target 187 20 shots @ 100 yards

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    Target 188 17 shots @ 100 Yards

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    240gr SWC @ 1,480fps with a hefty load of IMR-4227
    40 shots, 30 shots 18" x 18" after first 10 shots down to 21" for range, 265 yards...52" bullet drop

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    Resting forward on forearm....changed later to aft of forearm with better results
    Last edited by Savvy Jack; 01-10-2019 at 07:49 PM.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master pmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBSmith View Post
    A few additional comments.


    As I stated in the opening post, the flier might be the first, second, third, fourth or fifth shot. I look forward to seeing if different benching/holding techniques as described by Walks and Hickok cure the problem.
    I know supporting the fore end properly is important but this has me wondering about cheek weld and consistent placement of the butt stock to your shoulder. Just wondering if you're keeping that in mind as you shoot your string.

    For me when I'm standing our sitting cross legged I don't have to think too much about about consistently shouldering the rifle. But operating lever action prone or from a bench I have to keep it in mind. And slippery metal but plates can shift at the wrong time, sometimes it doesn't much to kick one out of the group.

    A little dry firing when you're in position can tell a story too. If the cross hairs or the front site jumps around when the trigger breaks that can be a bad sign.
    Recent cast boolit hunts:
    buck & doe, Accurate Molds 36-225AG Model 94AE
    Russian Boar Accurate Molds 46-405A Marlin 45-70
    doe 32 Win. Spl. 1920's Winchester model 1894 rifle

  6. #26
    Boolit Buddy
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    Yup !! " a little dry firing " ,,for got to eject my last rd. ck'd the spoting scope ,, pulled the stock to my cheek , looked thru the tang sight centered on bull ,squeezed the trigger ,,,, heard the hammer hit solid,, saw the rifle jump!!! Dang !!! made me stop ,, no wonder . Good point pmer.

    coffe's ready ,, Hootmix.

  7. #27
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmer View Post
    I know supporting the fore end properly is important but this has me wondering about cheek weld and consistent placement of the butt stock to your shoulder. Just wondering if you're keeping that in mind as you shoot your string.

    For me when I'm standing our sitting cross legged I don't have to think too much about about consistently shouldering the rifle. But operating lever action prone or from a bench I have to keep it in mind. And slippery metal but plates can shift at the wrong time, sometimes it doesn't much to kick one out of the group.

    A little dry firing when you're in position can tell a story too. If the cross hairs or the front site jumps around when the trigger breaks that can be a bad sign.
    Yes, all of the above have me concerned. Cheek weld especially with a scope. Scope parallax is another bugaboo, especially at close range. I've spent a lot of time sifting through my scopes to find those that are parallax-free at ranges under 100 yards. Very few of mine are.

    Back to resting/holding the rifle. That article I mentioned above is "Cast Bullets in Marlins, Once More," by Al Miller. It appeared in Handloader #98, July 1982. At one point, some of the backissue articles were available online at Handloader's website. I'm not much of a web jockey, and can't say if they still are.
    Last edited by PBSmith; 01-12-2019 at 12:29 PM.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master



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    interesting....I shoot a .308 lever savage 99...180 GR cast. The first shot is always, and I mean always not part of the following 4 shot group. The final 4 shots are a tight group, the first is always about 1" off that group.
    I use a sandbag and place it as close to the chamber end of the barrel as possible.
    Death to every foe and traitor and hurrah, my boys, for freedom !

  9. #29
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by atr View Post
    interesting....I shoot a .308 lever savage 99...180 GR cast. The first shot is always, and I mean always not part of the following 4 shot group. The final 4 shots are a tight group, the first is always about 1" off that group.
    I use a sandbag and place it as close to the chamber end of the barrel as possible.

    I had a Savage 340 that did the exact same thing. It drove me nuts. I tried everything.

    Finally sold it with full disclosure to the new owner.


    Steve in N CA

  10. #30
    Boolit Master
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    I have found that factory brass for lever action calibers does not seem to be made as carefully as that for cartridges like the 243 and 308. I have started weighing my brass and eliminating outliers, I am not getting carried away, a 3-4 grain range gets most of them, but I have encountered brass that was 10+ grains heavier and 5 grains lighter, I pull those from accuracy testing and 'for hunting' and move to the '25 yard tin can' pile. I have also started annealing more frequently, finding that some of the fliers are eliminated. If you use a neck expander/'M' die pay attention to the pressure needed to expand the necks. The ones that expand differently - very hard or very easy - will create a different bullet pull when firing and can cause a flier. Annealing eliminates this. I have a fancy ( high dollar) MRB annealer that I use because it is easy, but I do see a difference, group size may be slightly smaller, but the occasional wild one is gone. There is also something called a 'lube purge' I think, where excess lube builds up inconsistently and can causes a flier.

  11. #31
    Boolit Buddy Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    WARNING! Any of the following load data information is for discussion purposes only. They are MY results and yours could be much different. USE AT OWN RISK!


    This morning I used a caldwell type two piece "sand-bag" rifle rest and did get some crazy results. I have a lot to learn.

    100 yards 44-40, Marlin 1894CB

    Layer two POA
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    Avg. 1,665fps
    Avg. 16,640psi

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  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savvy Jack View Post
    WARNING! Any of the following load data information is for discussion purposes only. They are MY results and yours could be much different. USE AT OWN RISK!


    This morning I used a caldwell type two piece "sand-bag" rifle rest and did get some crazy results. I have a lot to learn.

    100 yards 44-40, Marlin 1894CB

    Layer two POA
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    Avg. 1,665fps
    Avg. 16,640psi

    Layer One POA
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    Guys
    I shoot for group with the butt on me shoulder, forend rested on a bag, or maybe hold the forend and rest me hand on the bag, been doin this for quite a time in order to no longer blame the gun or the load for fliers - sooooo if I get a stray in a five shot group - ya blinked, ya goose! - or ooops ya pulled that one - is my current response - operator fault!! - I guess we all think (most of the time) that we didnt do it - I have spent forty years fighting a flinch developed shooting magnum 12 gauge loads when I was still in school - when I owned up to it my rifle shooting improved a lot.!
    Recently been campaigning a 1876 with heavy boolits (480 - 500grains) over 75 grains of black - I built a stand up bench and wear my sheepskin padded shooting vest for comfort - my hero days are long gone!

  13. #33
    Boolit Buddy Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    yeap, it's true, the problem is between the scope and the trigger!

  14. #34
    Boolit Master
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    If you don't see muzzle flash you flinched.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master
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    Shooting a string allows the possibility of a change in your stock weld / cheek weld. Addressing the rifle differently can change your POI.

  16. #36
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by 725 View Post
    Shooting a string allows the possibility of a change in your stock weld / cheek weld. Addressing the rifle differently can change your POI.
    Yes, I need to be more aware of that. And it's more of a hazard with a lever than a bolt gun, which can be worked without taking the rifle off the bags. This might at least partly explain why I get far fewer fliers with bolts. Thanks for your comment.

  17. #37
    Boolit Man
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    Since you are getting great reply's, my own thoughts would be the same as post 15 and post 30. Also I think you are on the right track on your post 19. I will add a couple of things that hadn't been hit on yet. I tend to short trim my cases just a little to make sure they are all the same length. Always use same headstamp brass in a string. Primers will and do make a difference, please don't under estimate a primer change. If I develop a load with say rp and then switch to win cases the poi and group size are almost always different, not a lot but enough to matter to me. I have learned to measure the crimp and record it, it might be different when you switch brass. I have four different 30-30's and they all have different quirks but IF I am only shooting for group I single load so as to take the loaded mag spring out of consideration. If I am loading for hunting then I load the magazine. When I decide on a load I test it the way I would be field shooting it, ie... offhand, shooting stick/tripod, braced on the side of a tree etc... and make final sight adjustment on that.
    That Savage 340 referred to in post 29, I had the same problem with mine. Cold barrel shot would be an inch out. My fix was a lightly lubed patch with the same lube on bullet with just a single drop of ed's red and run from muzzle to breech and back out the morning of the hunt cured it.
    All these suggestions make it sound complicated but it's not, just work on one thing at a time and it will all come together.
    Tony

  18. #38
    Boolit Man
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    One more thing to add to my previous post. I test at 100 yards with scope and 75 with irons. I don't expect MOA although I get it sometimes, I want a round group at 2 MOA or better at 100. Only one of my levers will not do that, 2 1/2 is the best it will do. The funny thing is that rifle will do 2 1/2 with just about any so called standard load. It isn't picky at all.
    Have fun with it.
    Tony

  19. #39
    Boolit Master bikerbeans's Avatar
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    I have to claim that fliers are my fault. Since i load my own ammo and pull the trigger i have no one else to blame.

    As far as group size everyone of my dozen or so marlin levers is different. I have done many barrel, mag tube and forend swaps and know that afterwards the rifle will shoot differently, sometimes better, sometimes worse.

    BB

  20. #40
    Boolit Master Dan Cash's Avatar
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    I may have missed this observation by others in this thread but it does not seem that anyone is addressing mirage as "group opener." Mirage, particularly that caused by the heat waves coming off the gun barrel will really make the target move around which contributes to the spread of shot.
    To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, the trouble with many shooting experts is not that they're ignorant; its just that they know so much that isn't so.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check