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Thread: Building a Strong Foundation?

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    So you ask what sort of bolt gun?

    Young and on a budget but a great love for guns ......

    I would suggest Savage.

    Now I love the Remies and Winneys as much as the next guy. Mausers thrown in for good measure along with tang safety Ruger 77’s.

    However the Savage brings versatility to the equation. They are clumpy looking but shoot like sin!

    I personally do not like the Axis version and greatly prefer the regular Savage or Stevens lines the best there are a LOT of satisfied owners that own (Axis) them.

    Take my first Savage, a long action blued bought slightly used with a wooden stock for $225. It came to me as a 7 mm Rem Mag and I have switched it to a varmint weight 25-06 and a 338/06. Another long action came as just a stainless action, began as a 300 RUM but ended up for now as a 257 STW.

    If one finds a cartridge one just can not bear to have in another rifle you can always have one built on another platform or one could just realize that a rifles beauty can be something other than skin deep and accept Savage bolt guns as they are .... a whale of a shooter that can be owner switched with a minimum of tools along with some common sense and some self education.

    Next subject: Reloading

    I can not fathom what my gun craze would be without handloading! Period!

    I do not differentiate between a guy with the cheapest of setups and the most lavish of layouts. I started with a RCBS Jr single stage press mounted to a home made stand, a Ohaus 505 scale, a Pacific trimmer and a plastic spoon dipping gun powder from a paper picnic bowl onto my scale. I added a Uniflow measure after while and then a trickler later but the press and stand served me for my first 35 years.

    Simply put handloading is a bridge to a greater understanding of firearm performance .... there is no way around it.

    Three44s
    Last edited by Three44s; 01-10-2019 at 01:19 AM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arisaka99 View Post
    I’d like to have a GP100 in .357 one day, but have also looked at a smaller revolver to carry when the Glock is too big.

    Why 7mm-08 over .30cal?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Sorry about the delay.

    7mm projectiles occupy sort of a sweet spot in the world of ballistics. They combine a good weight with a good ballistic coefficient. The difference between a 30 caliber (.308" or 7.62mm) vs. a 28 caliber (.284" or 7mm) doesn't look big on paper but it is significant.

    The 7mm Mauser cartridge, also known as the 7 x 57, is one of the oldest of the 7mm cartridges and the first in a long line of cartridges that use 7mm projectiles. That long line isn't an accident, the 7mm works.

    The 7mm-08 captures a lot of excellent qualities. It is a short action cartridge, it has a flat trajectory, recoil is moderate, the bullet has enough weight to be an excellent hunting round and there are lots of bullet weights available for the 7mm. The 7mm-08 is based on the .308 Winchester and is basically nothing more than a .308 Winchester necked down to take a 7mm bullet.

    The .308 Win (7.62 NATO) has the advantage of being a widely distributed military cartridge and has been with us longer than the 7mm-08 that was derived from the .308 Win. The .308 has some outstanding attributes and if I could only have one rifle cartridge, that would be the one I would want.
    But if I wasn't already entrenched in the world of 30 calibers, the 7mm-08 might be where I landed.

    As for arguments that the 7mm-08 is expensive or not readily available as a factory loaded cartridge, I'm not sure that's enough of a negative to steer one away from the excellent qualities of the 7mm. All factory loaded ammunition is expensive and although there's a lot of military ammunition available, it's all FMJ projectiles. So military ammo is fine for target work but you still need to buy commercial ammo for hunting or reload if you need something other than a FMJ bullet.

    Cost and availability is a factor to be considered and cartridges such as .223 and .308 clearly have some market advantage. However, buying larger quantities of commercial ammunition can make those differences less significant.

    As others have correctly pointed out, reloading opens up your world. You can spend your entire life shooting factory loaded cartridges and be very happy but reloading broadens your horizons.

    Take your time, do your research and good luck.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master Shopdog's Avatar
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    Long action,30-06.... short,308. Because,you are probably less than an hour from some of the best Black Bear hunting in the east. The 308 has "maybe" a tiny bit more target application. The 7-08 is just an easy to shoot and tune,CB or JB that they rarely stay in the safe for long. They are a little better at dual purpose than the 30's for, varmints and big game.

    Handguns,4" 357.

    Handloading..... if you want to shoot,you almost have to do it. Bulk packed 223's and 9mm's are cheap..... so if that's all you want,go for it. Handloading is so much more. It's about self sufficiency and tailoring the ammo to EXACTLY how you want to use it. Think a cheap off the rack suit...... vs custom made Armani,except..... the Armani is cheaper than JC Penny. There just isn't any comparison. Factory is that.... you get 1/2 dz choices,maybe. Handload within pretty dang broad parameters,and you can customize the loads to suit just about any specs. Good luck with your project.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Three44s View Post
    So you ask what sort of bolt gun?

    Young and on a budget but a great love for guns ......

    I would suggest Savage.

    Now I love the Remies and Winneys as much as the next guy. Mausers thrown in for good measure along with tang safety Ruger 77’s.

    However the Savage brings versatility to the equation. They are clumpy looking but shoot like sin!

    I personally do not like the Axis version and greatly prefer the regular Savage or Stevens lines the best there are a LOT of satisfied owners that own (Axis) them.

    Take my first Savage, a long action blued bought slightly used with a wooden stock for $225. It came to me as a 7 mm Rem Mag and I have switched it to a varmint weight 25-06 and a 338/06. Another long action came as just a stainless action, began as a 300 RUM but ended up for now as a 257 STW.

    If one finds a cartridge one just can not bear to have in another rifle you can always have one built on another platform or one could just realize that a rifles beauty can be something other than skin deep and accept Savage bolt guns as they are .... a whale of a shooter that can be owner switched with a minimum of tools along with some common sense and some self education.

    Next subject: Reloading

    I can not fathom what my gun craze would be without handloading! Period!

    I do not differentiate between a guy with the cheapest of setups and the most lavish of layouts. I started with a RCBS Jr single stage press mounted to a home made stand, a Ohaus 505 scale, a Pacific trimmer and a plastic spoon dipping gun powder from a paper picnic bowl onto my scale. I added a Uniflow measure after while and then a trickler later but the press and stand served me for my first 35 years.

    Simply put handloading is a bridge to a greater understanding of firearm performance .... there is no way around it.

    Three44s
    I guess I should’ve specified, I do have reloading equipment;(RCBS Rock chucker, Lyman scale, Redding powder measure) but have no place to have it set up, so don’t reload at the moment.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Chris



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  5. #25
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    And he at least knows how because I taught him and made sure he has some data books as well. All he needs is space and time and he will be back to reloading. In the meantime the 9mm and the .223 are the cheapest rounds to shoot, and for functional use grab the Arisaka - if you need ammo next time you guys are here set some time aside and we can load some - it is a 7.7-06, btw guys. It too will kill anything on the continent.
    Last edited by Wayne Smith; 01-11-2019 at 09:08 AM.
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  6. #26
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shopdog View Post
    Long action,30-06.... short,308. Because,you are probably less than an hour from some of the best Black Bear hunting in the east. The 308 has "maybe" a tiny bit more target application. The 7-08 is just an easy to shoot and tune,CB or JB that they rarely stay in the safe for long. They are a little better at dual purpose than the 30's for, varmints and big game.

    Handguns,4" 357.

    Handloading..... if you want to shoot,you almost have to do it. Bulk packed 223's and 9mm's are cheap..... so if that's all you want,go for it. Handloading is so much more. It's about self sufficiency and tailoring the ammo to EXACTLY how you want to use it. Think a cheap off the rack suit...... vs custom made Armani,except..... the Armani is cheaper than JC Penny. There just isn't any comparison. Factory is that.... you get 1/2 dz choices,maybe. Handload within pretty dang broad parameters,and you can customize the loads to suit just about any specs. Good luck with your project.
    In regards to bear hunting, do you mean Shenandoah National Park? I've only ever bear hunted the Dismal Swamp, but that was back when I lived in Tidewater. I do love some smoked backstrap though.. Haha
    Chris



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  7. #27
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Smith View Post
    And he at least knows how because I taught him and mad sure he has some data books as well. All he needs is space and time and he will be back to reloading. In the meantime the 9mm and the .223 are the cheapest rounds to shoot, and for functional use grab the Arisaka - if you need ammo next time you guys are here set some time aside and we can load some - it is a 7.7-06, btw guys. It too will kill anything on the continent.
    That is a fact, gents. Everything I know about loading/casting, I learned from Wayne! He set me up with equipment and showed me how to use it!

    Wayne, I'll give you a shout next time I'm down that way!
    Chris



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  8. #28
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    For another bolt gun I'd say Howa, Weatherby or Beraga. Plastic stock but shoot very well. Not sure I'd go into bear country with the 7.7 without at least a 10mm hot load. what case does the 7.7 08 use? SIL has an original bring back 7.7 uses different case. Shoots great. IIRC it's a Howa action and very good.
    I guess the real question YOU have to ask is WHY you need/want more? Or 'there are lots of used around, what should I look for'? Expect <1/2 of MSRP back on anything you get. Gun guys are penny pincers.
    Whatever!

  9. #29
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    I'll toss in a couple things Chris if you don't mind an opinion of an ancient shooter who has recommended certain things to others over the years. The 30-06 is capable of taking nearly any game on the planet. About the only ones it isn't the best for would be Cape Buffalo etc. It could be done of course but not the "best" Easy to find ammo for in a huge number of loadings and bullet weights and even surplus ammo. Long action?....if the size is THAT critical take an inch or two off the barrel length to make it as compact as a short action any anything you shoot will never know the difference of a few fps. Easy to load for and a HUGE selection of components work. The 30-06 is arguably is greatest round ever devised as an "all round caliber"
    For a handgun (and I don't own one in this caliber but have in the past)......the 357 magnum has tons going for it for many of the same above reasons. Especially loading when you start and factory ammo before that. And don't rule out bulk ammo especially in 38 special. I once got a young shooter started in handgun shooting and wanted to become very proficient with one. He was drooling over a number of high dollar semi's and I convinced him to but a Police trade in gun in 357 and to buy (at the time very cheaply) a few thousand rounds of bulk 38 specials and shoot.....shoot.....shoot. That is how you become proficient.
    There is a lot of good information already posted here and a hugs amount of knowledge at this site. A lot of us here started just as you have and it took time to amass all we have now. Take your time.....choose QUALITY every time over quantity. You are better off with a smaller number of guns rather than 200 that you very rarely shoot and took funds away from what you want to do.....which is shoot.....smiles.
    Again this is just another opinion but good luck to you and your family and I am glad to see you again.

    Scott

  10. #30
    Boolit Master
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    I'll second looking at a Savage. They may be inexpensive, but they are not cheap. If you want a revolver, and ever have a chance to pick up a Dan Wesson, I don't think you could go wrong. You won't be limited to barrel length. The least expensive rifle (center fire) that I know of using factory ammo is 7.62X39. I'm not a real fan of the AK, but I think the SKS is a fine rifle.

  11. #31
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    All these responses have some good thoughts behind them. The OP seems like one who will make thoughtful choices. My only advice is to make sure you remain focused on your young family. Include your children in your interests. They will grow up before you know it.

    I think a preponderance of members here have already raised a family and are more focused on hobbies. I know I am. Our two oldest grandsons will be 22 and 20 withing a couple of months. Our two sons are closing in on 50 in the next couple of years so they will be like many here and getting really serious about retirement. I'm not saying that the OP should not spend some time with his hobby but balance things.

    Looking back, I don't think I failed my family but between work and making sure they were taken care of, I can see where I might have done a better job in a few areas. I thank God that both our sons grew up to be good men and raised good sons and a daughter.

    I hope this post hasn't been a downer for the thread. Others posted enough good advice that I couldn't improve on.
    John
    W.TN

  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by alamogunr View Post
    I hope this post hasn't been a downer for the thread. Others posted enough good advice that I couldn't improve on.
    Not a downer - good post, The OP seems to have a good head on his shoulders. Common theme for additions has been in the vicinity of a 30-06 bolt gun and 357 wheelgun. Beyond that you are collecting for the sake of collecting.

    Reload - don't spend too much on factory ammo. Can't emphasize this enough.

    Don't drain the family resources too much and enjoy what you have. When it comes to material possessions the human tendency is to never have enough. This is a failing and I know it has affected me at times.

  13. #33
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    Gentlemen, I've known Chris since he was 14 and he has had a good head on his shoulders all the time I've known him - with one or two Nothingexceptions!

    7.7-06 is the 7.7 Jap with a 30-06 reamer run into it. Shoots the -06 case necked up with a .311 boolet. It will do anything the -06 will do. And you have it in your hands - I'd be comfortable hunting bears with it myself - black at least. Nothing on the east coast will stand up to it.
    Wayne the Shrink

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  14. #34
    Boolit Grand Master

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    This thread brings back memories of being young, newly married with a young family and just starting a career! Or even before that, looking for a career. I've always had a side job and I used that money for my toys although the Family did get a fair cut out of it. I remember painting a house for enough money to buy a S&W Model 29. I built a 6ft box blade for enough money to buy a Colt Python. I helped a Brother-in-law mow yards one summer for enough money to buy a Browning High Power. And on and on, you get the picture! Like another poster said, Family comes 1st, and I tried really hard to be generous. Anytime I bought a gun the Wife got some little trinket or the boys got something. At around 19 or 20 years old I got my electrical license and buying guns got to be easier.

    To me, a good foundation would be a 22 rifle, a shotgun, an assault style rifle, a bolt action rifle, a semi-auto handgun and a revolver. Let the order be dictated by your interest of by buying opportunity. Early on my gun buying was interrupted by getting set up to reload and again a little later to buy a safe.

    When I started buying guns for the boys I bought them the same things and at the same ages. First was a 22 rifle, a Ruger 77/22. Then came a shotgun, a Remington 1100. And last was a bolt action rifle, a stainless Remington model 700 in 308. Both of the rifles got Leopold scopes. They still have these guns although they have bought several more for their selves.

    In closing, I would suggest staying with the main stream common calibers until you actually get set up to reload. While rare, obsolete or Wildcat calibers are fun and rewarding they do cost more and can be harder to find. For example, A 6.5 Jap is harder to find than a 308 and a 357 Sig is harder to find than a 9mm.
    Last edited by lightman; 01-11-2019 at 11:20 AM.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master
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    A good foundation?
    Stay away from new run of the mill rifles.
    Look for rifles that are sure to appreciate.
    Check out FN Mausers with Sears and Montgomery Wards type brands. Others include nice BRNO/CZ commercial Mauser bolt guns and waffle top Marlin 336 lever guns with Ballard rifling.
    Buy quality single shots when found at bargain prices.
    Just remember always buy quality at good prices.
    Over the long term you will not be happy with cheap bargain rifles.
    Also over the long term your tastes will change and some of your stuff you will probably tire of. Make sure you can get your money back
    Then you can move on to your new intetests.
    I guarantee you will not have guys lined up to buy your cheap plastic stocked deer rifle when new ones can be bought new for less than $300.
    For example 340 Savages do not seem to increase in value.
    For some reason the walnut stocked 788 Rems seem to hold their value after beginning life as cheap rifles.
    Last edited by EDG; 01-11-2019 at 12:01 PM.
    EDG

  16. #36
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    Collecting for pleasure or afraid they would get banned?

    For pleasure the same as I do now. I have some of about everything that struck my fancy for some reason or other. Not worth a great deal to anyone but me I guess. 43 Spanish Rolling Block to a SW Model 19.

    For hunting if I were starting out and I've been there to feed myself I'd get a 12g shotgun, 22lr rifle or pistol and a 30-30 lever for whitetail or if out west a suitable caliber in a bolt as a do-it-all like a 308 or 30-06. If the lever then any used Win or Marling would work, if a bolt I'd get a Savage Axis. Cheap, accurate and it would feed my family many times over the price I paid for it. I paid under $200 with the rebate for a couple I have and they are all MOA or better. My preference would be the lever but if pressed for one that Savage in 308 would be hard to pass up. Not sure what I couldn't hunt with it if pressed. Light bullets for coyote and heavy for moose.

    Pistol I'd probably buy a Ruger Single Six convertible if I could swing it but a rifle would work. Bigger caliber I'd save my money and buy a used Ruger 357 either GP or Blackhawk. Either can take a deer, done it myself, and be used for self defense.

    For worst case I'd buy a bunch of 80% Ar and Glock lowers and the uppers to fill them out along with, where legal, a number of FTF firearms that no-one knows I have except me.
    Last edited by jonp; 01-11-2019 at 06:15 PM.
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  17. #37
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    At the moment, I have a 12ga shotgun with rifled slug and field barrels, an AR pistol in 300BLK, a 10/22, a Glock 23 in .40 S&W, and a Type 99 Arisaka that I have to handload for.


    Well some easy decisions here actually.

    1. AR Pistol that gets traded out and becomes a double action revolver in .357 magnum only. If your not home and the wife cant use cartridges with a .357 magnum headstamp, thousands of options labeled 38 special on the case head.

    2. That shotgun does a lot but honestly can the WIFE use it? I doubt it, convert it into something else like a 20 gauge that does nearly the same as your 12 quage in a format others can use.

    3. 10-22, that's enough .22 rim fire for you. Look into a replacement barrel. Very good replacement barrels going for 100$ or less these days. get one or two. New spring kits as well. And ammo that works in your barrel.

    4. Glock 23 is alright, it keeps you armed. COnsider a replacement barrel in 9mm so you can get some REALLY affordable fmj to keep on hand.

    5. The Arisaka, it works, its got wollop but negatives in ammo availability. If someone comes buy and wants to buy it, as long as they offer fair value or want to trade a good bolt rifle for it.... like say a surplus mauser or a used 700 or model 70 in say .308 JUMP ON THAT DEAL.

    Points to consider, shotguns ARE fun but they are COSTLY to feed. 8-20$ for a box of 5 rounds is lunacy in the face of what .308 costs on the same gun store display shelf. IDEALLY id sell it outright, or if possible use it as trade value on a savage bolt gun.

    cost efficiency in shooting is about blending cut throat purchasing with personal enjoyment.
    1. View all purchased ammunition not just for its factory shooting qualities but for its reloading qualities as well. If you LOVE federal brass for 38 special, when you see federal factory ammo go on sale, BUY BUY BUY.
    2.If your favorite small pistol primers go on sale, buy buy buy

  18. #38
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Calico, 'Lissa may be only 5'3" but she loves my Encore in 45-70! I'll bet she knows how to handle that shotgun and has, numerous times.

    Other than what you have, Chris, I'd add a .22 revolver and rifle. Take 'Lissa to a range where you can rent guns and let her find her carry piece. No hurry, but keep that in mind as a high priority even if she says no.

    I loaded ammo for years with that Jr3 that you have, dies, and components kept in an old salesman's travel case that I filled with foam and cut outs for the press, the powder scale and measure, and the dies. I kept the components separate.

    When I needed to load I would fold an old towel on the dining room table, a piece of plywood under the table, and with C clamps clamp the press to the table without scarring anything. Everything else was set up on the table. I'd load what I needed, put things away, and no one would know that I had done it.

    You can do the same thing. Having presses set up all the time was a dream for years. No reason why you can't do the same thing, especially to load the Arisaka. .40 is also cheaper to load than buy even if you buy bullets. .300Blkout likewise, and you can't use it's full versatility without loading. Once you are used to it you will use only an hour or two with everything set up. Plan your loading ahead, have everything to hand, and you will be surprised how quickly it goes.

    'Lissa won't complain once she sees the money you are saving, and she likes to shoot as well. You know Lynne, and she supports my loading because she understands the finances behind it.
    Wayne the Shrink

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  19. #39
    Boolit Master

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    Chris, anytime you want, you are welcome to use my bench. Just saying. Good to see you here again.

  20. #40
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    My OH, My how I love this 9 year old thread
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...7-7-06-Arisaka

    Was 14 now married, my how time flys
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check