Lyman Spartan compound linkage conversion?

[squidtamer]

Wondering if anyone on this board has modified their old Lyman Spartan to add compound linkage to aid in heavier duty work? Mine's been relegated to light duty as I got older. I'd like to put it back in use or give it to the kids with a few "upgrades" you can buy online from 3d printer people now.(primer catchers,etc)

Been thinking about this a long time as I've had this spartan since Johnson was president. I've done a little searching online and found two or three descriptions from people that have done this, but I cannot find any good photos.
Seems like the kind of place that 50 people here have done it already and learned something in the process. I'm just not sure where the best place to attach the next bolt hole would be.


Next, I might look into modifying the ram to use a spring instead of the little nut for holding the shell holders on. And I toy with painting it bright orange every year or so. And yes I still have the original 60s bicycle handle. (so does my 450)

Thoughts? comments? Lots of great pics and some info?

[bosterr]

I had a Spartan when Johnson was president too. I broke my handle twice where the shoulder and the threads meet the larger diameter. Each time my BIL machinist re-threaded it but of course it was getting shorter. I remember he told me guys were drilling and tapping the center and running a harder cap screw in to re-enforce it. Sounded yonky to me. I moved up to a Rock Chucker and never looked back.

[Binky]

I also have a Spartan from the 60s. I still use it for depriming and some pistol reloading. Increasing the leverage will not change the fact that because it is a relatively light "C" press it will have a certain amount of "spring" when you start using it for rifle cases above the .223 class of cases. When used for 308/30-06 type cases the spring in the press is visible.(the reason I bought a Chucker in the first place) It doesn't work well at all, with Magnum class cases. (at least in my experience) If you want a good press for a gift for the kids, I would recommend finding a good used RCBS Jr. as it will do about any thing and has the snap in shell holders and you can still buy the primer catcher. I currently have and use 4 different presses. A 1974 Rock Chucker, a Lyman Spar-T (the turret version of the Spartan) used for pistol loading, a Jr. and the old Spartan that get used for specialty projects. Your call, but I don't think you can get where you want to go or be happy with it when you are done by overhauling the Spartan. Good luck with whatever you decide. HTH

[1hole]

The toggle conversion can be done. I started in '65 with a Spar-T and finally drank the green Kool-Aid in '93 to get more rigidity and compound leverage to ease lever pressure.

I determined to keep the faithful old Lyman for special tasks and "home shop" converted the toggle linkage to work it as a compound; it really wasn't very hard to do and the cost was practically nothing but I have no photos and couldn't begin to helpfully explain it here.

(For what it's worth, I'm no brand snob; IF I had to replace my big green RCBS RC II tomorrow I'd get a big red Lee Classic Cast instead, they are stronger and have MUCH better user features. I would use the saved money to buy more Forster BR or Redding Competition dies.)

[EDG]

The Lyman Spartan frame is not strong enough for heavy duty use.
C presses in general are mostly obsolete because they are only satisfactory for light duty app.ication.
I began loading with a Bair C press about 50 years ago. I checked it one time with an indicator. When resizing machine gun fired US GI military brass it sprung open .007.
This caused variable resizing due to differences in the amount of lube and speed of the sizing stroke.

Just use your Spartan for light duty. Buy a real press with a compound linkage and an O frame for heavy work such as FL sizing of bottle necked rifle rounds.

[380AUTO]

I have a Spartan as a primary press I reload everything from 9mm,30-30,308,30-06,45-70,500 mag and I’ve never had a problem. Never had a compound linkage press to compare it to but it gets the job done.

[salpal48]

I have many "C" presses. Herters, Bair, lachmiller , Lyman Comet, and Ch. I Don't Find them light Duty @ all.. there Very strong . i have swaged , formed brass . They do have a limitation. It is up to The experience of The Loader to Know that. I look at it not everyone knows everything

[Bazoo]

I have a spartan but the largest thing I've sized on it has been 30-30. I don't think it'd have any problems with 30-06 class sizing though. I've modified my press by shortening the handle about an inch.

I seen a c press once that had a piece of bar stock fitted between the ears for the primer feed and the primer arm. The purpose was to make the c press into an O press for swaging.

[EDG]

For those who might consider the Spartan and other similar C presses suitable for heavy duty use I have a challenge for you.

Take a steel .44 Rem mag size die and size .444 Marlin cases to swage the .464 case head down to .452 at the rim.
You will most likely break the frame of your press.
I have done this with heavy duty compound leverage presses and actually cracked or split several sizing dies.
The Spartan linkage nor frame was ever built for heavy duty use of that type.

[ukrifleman]

I have had my Spartan since the early 70's and it is still in use for bullet swaging and case neck expanding.

I have to agree with previous posts that it is probably not up to seriously heavy use whatever you do to modify it.

My main press these days is a Lee classic turret that handles anything I throw at it.

ukrifleman

[1hole]

The supposed limitations of modest size iron C presses are often exagerated and the supposed strengths of O presses are also over stated.

Cast iron is not as massively strong or nearly as ridged as is assumed and a few minutes of testing a few presses with a sensitive dial indicator will prove it to anyone. Cast iron is actually quite "flexible" within narrow limits, that's a quality that resists shattering which makes it ideal for heavy loaded machine parts like steam train engines and auto transmission gears - and even reloading presses. My RC II flexes more when FL sizing .30-06 than my tiny Lee C "Reloader" because within their obvious limits the cast alum alloy is more rigid than the iron.

The old C presses totally dominated the reloading market for decades and those of us (intelligently) using them had no trouble FL sizing or wildcat case reforming. In fact, in my opinion, the only functional disadvantage to using the old presses for normal reloading tasks is the loss of compound lever linkage power BUT that one fact makes me suggest any new guy consider starting with a compound toggle press! But massive press strength simply isn't needed to reload high quality ammo.

I wouldn't attempt to use ANY reloading press to cold swage solid brass case heads smaller but anyone properly using an old C press need have no concern about the sufficient rigidity or strength of his tool - C presses worked very well years ago and they haven't stopped!

[salpal48]

I agree That There is a limitation. Not every machine is built the same. The loader make the choice. . If the loader has only One Choice Then That choice has been made. it is Not the fault Of that particular machine, it is a poor Choice of selection with lack of Experience

[Pressman]

This is a RCBS JR2 converted to compound linkage. This press was made as a proof of concept. It is not strong enough for serious reloading.

Yes, it can be done but the amount of engineering to make a successful press is considerable and totally impracticable if having the work done by a machine shop.

The most cost effective method to get a compound linkage press is buying a 1st generation Rockchucker.

[1hole]

[QUOTE=Pressman;4547276]

This is a RCBS JR2 converted to compound linkage. This press was made as a proof of concept. It is not strong enough for serious reloading.[QUOTE]

I'm puzzled by some of your statements.

Is it your belief that the original RCBS' JR 2 itself was/is too weak for "serious reloading"? What do serious reloaders do that demands a stronger press than a simple C. And I wonder how you define serious reloading?

Surely you know the simple mechanical "concept" of compound toggle leverage, as such, was well known to engineers long before it was marketed to reloaders in the RCBS "A" series well before the advent of JR2 presses? (And the massive "A" presses were aimed at RCBS .22 bullet swagers, not at common reloaders because we have no legitimate need for such great press strength!)

Yes, it can be done but the amount of engineering to make a successful press is considerable and totally impracticable if having the work done by a machine shop.

First, the question wasn't about machne shops, it was about personally modifying a Lyman Spartan to a compound linkage.

Second, I'm not an engineer nor did I have access to machine tools other than a 4 1/2" high speed grinder, a drill press with a couple of bits, a 5/16"NF tap and a small home shop MIG welder. I'm only a wood/metal work hobbyist but with my modest tools I designed the changes, then modified and fabricated the few parts needed to change my (identical Spar-T) linkage from simple to compound in less than a full day, all without a computer or even slide rule - meaning it really is fairly easy to do. The only things I bought was a 2 foot length of 1/4" x 1 1/4" steel bar, plus three grade #8 bolts and washers from Lowes'. I have converted GI .30-06 cases to .243 with it and can assure you it is plenty strong enough for most people's "serious" reloading. ???

Your cited RC JR 2 example is probably a (tiny bit) "stronger" than my old Spartan. But both of them are much stronger than the simple arbor presses and hand dies used by most serious bench rest shooters. In fact, I hear a lot of BR guys are using the tiny cast aluminum frame RCBS Partner presses for resizing their cases at the shooting bench - are they not serious reloaders?

????

[Pressman]

1hole, good questions. The way the JR2 was converted created a weak area for the links. The links need to be supported on both sides and to do this with a conversion is bolt on a side support. Full length resizing a 30-06 has been considered the gold standard of press power. I would not do it with this press.

To attach the upper links to the frame requires drilling the frame for a 1/2" pin, this must be done straight and square. Then the links must be exactly the same length, hole to hole center. The pivot block, where you attach the handle must be drilled square. All this is necessary to create an equal loading on each link. Then you need to design a way for the block to attach to your ram. Too work correctly the bottom of the frame will need to be shortened.

Would I try this with hand tools, no.

Yes, the JR presses with their O frame design are stronger then the C frame Spartan, in the upper frame area. The remainder of the frame is nearly identical. Both presses are slightly modified copies of the 1932 Pacific Reloading Tool.

As for benchrest shooters, you are comparing apples to oranges. They only use very specific brass and only neck size. This can be done with hand tools though the arbor press makes the effort less. They are never full length resizing while at a match.

I would still recommend picking up a 1st generation Rockchucker, you will be amazed at how easy it is to convert brass or full length resize.

If you are a wood worker I would suggest you build a wood mock-up to test your ideas before cutting steel. It would be an excellent undertaking in understanding how the swing link design works.

Ken

[Littlewolf]

this might comfort you. i have 3 spartans that do ALL my rifle loading from 22hornet to 303brit. the one i use for sizing the origial handle was already bent so i had a new one made at a local shop 6" longer than original, sizing the 303 is pretty easy. spartan 2 has the original 40rnd primer tube system where i use the M-dies 3rd spartan is the seater press. asside from the longer handle all parts from primer catcher to primer system springs are original.

[1hole]

1hole, good questions. The way the JR2 was converted created a weak area for the links. The links need to be supported on both sides and to do this with a conversion is bolt on a side support.

I bored a 1/8" through hole to insure alignment of the swinging attachments, then drilled and tapped each side for 1" 3/8 NF machine screws - no side support has been needed and nothing has cracked.

Full length resizing a 30-06 has been considered the gold standard of press power. I would not do it with this press.

I would. With my lighter Spar-T press modification, I have FL sized quite a bit of -06, and a few .300 Win Mag cases, as well as the previously mentioned mil sup -06 to .243 reformed cases. I only did that as a test when I did it about '94.

To attach the upper links to the frame requires drilling the frame for a 1/2" pin, this must be done straight and square. Then the links must be exactly the same length, hole to hole center.

Covered how I insured required alignment of the swing pins above - not at all hard to do in a drill press. Precise drilling of my fabricated steel bar swing arms was also easy, both left and right arms were clamped together and each end was drilled in one operation - perfection!

The pivot block, where you attach the handle must be drilled square. All this is necessary to create an equal loading on each link

Not at all necessary on the press we're discussing. The handle-to-single toggle to lever block on a Spartan is nothing like your RC, I simply used the original holes.

Then you need to design a way for the block to attach to your ram.

All that was necessary to use the original ram was to weld the bottom of the ram to the top of the original swing link.

Too work correctly the bottom of the frame will need to be shortened.

Would I try this with hand tools, no.

I did. To work at all, the lower body had to be cut off about 3". That was easily done with a 4 1/2" high speed grinder. Nothing bears on that point so precision there wasn't an issue on function.

Yes, the JR presses with their O frame design are stronger then the C frame Spartan, in the upper frame area. The remainder of the frame is nearly identical. Both presses are slightly modified copies of the 1932 Pacific Reloading Tool.

Agreed on the massively copied '32 Pacifics but those tools served a LOT of serious reloaders for a very long time and they will still do anything now that they did back then. That is why I asked what you define as presses strong enough for "serious" reloaders.

As for benchrest shooters, you are comparing apples to oranges. They only use very specific brass and only neck size. This can be done with hand tools though the arbor press makes the effort less. They are never full length resizing while at a match.

It's been a long time since I attended a BR match and I know they rarely FL size but that wasn't my point. Point is, a blanket statement about what press is or isn't strong enough for serious reloading is quite broad. Seems the chores any press is used for determines the need for strength. Large bottle cases justify a moderately strong press but small cases of any kind need not be made of heavy cast iron. I mean MY serious needs do not mandate what anyone else needs to be considered a serious reloader.

I would still recommend picking up a 1st generation Rockchucker, you will be amazed at how easy it is to convert brass or full length resize.

I got over that amazment about '67 but I didn't drink the green KOOL-AID until '93.

If you are a wood worker I would suggest you build a wood mock-up to test your ideas before cutting steel. It would be an excellent undertaking in understanding how the swing link design works.

Understanding of a press? Single stage loading presses are VERY simple mechanical devices with 3-4 very slow moving parts, there are no engineering secrets hidden deep within them.

I don't believe the compound toggle/swing link design is very complicated so I pictured how I would do it in my mind and did the conversion in one day. Seems I was right because now, after some 25 years of modified service, it still works quite well. And I consider myself to be a very serious reloader. ???

All of that's why I didn't discourage the OP from pursuing converting his Spartan to a compound toggle, it really isn't all that complex or hard to do. IF anyone has the few required tools and modest skills he isn't likely to need detailed instructions from anyone else to do it himself.

[Pressman]

1hole can you post a picture of your modified Spartan, please.

[1hole]

1hole can you post a picture of your modified Spartan, please.

I'd love to but, as I said in my first post in this thread, I cannot. It's a very old mod (some 20+ years ago) and I never made a digital photo of it after I got into digital cameras, it just wasn't that important to me.

Right now all of my loading gear, and old paper photos, are in a storage locker and I couldn't possibly get to them even if I knew which box it's in.

That said, I'd still like to know what criteria you use to qualify "serious" reloaders. ??

[Pressman]

That's too bad it's all packed away, it would be educational to see your work.

Serious, as in hard or heavy effort to size or swage boolits or brass.