0.600" Two Ball Load

[longbow]

Are those what they call specialty "gas seals" for police and military use? I can't quite tell from the pic.

These:

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/HB...tinfo/072HB12/

If so I tried to order some of those a while ago from the Canadian BPI rep but there was some confusion as to whet they were even though I sent the part number. I suspect he'd never seen them before.

Not sure what their special purpose is and since they say gas seal but have a central hole I have to think they are for use on slugs but...? I really don't know.

For full bore loads they'd work as donut wads though as Ajay says, the hole might have to be opened up a bit, and the 20 ga. version might work for two ball loads in wads but they are a bit thick as ball separators. Two 0.600" RB's fill my deep CSD wads. I might get a nitro card wad between them or maybe thin felt.

What I want to try is those attached to the tail end of my TC HB slugs to Brenneke'ize them. The 16 ga. version might work well for my Brenneke'ized Lee slugs too. I should buy some full bore, 16 ga. for the Lee slugs and 20 ga. for donut wads under RB's.

I got to get organized and get an order in to BPI!

Longbow

[Markopolo]

I looked on BPI website, and didn’t see them, but who knows.. take a copy of my Pic and send it to them at BPI sales. If worse comes to worse, pm me and I will part with a few, but you should know that outgoing shipping from here can be a lost cause here. We get mail delivery via floatplane to our boat dock, but the pilots dont like to take mail out if they can help it... too much paperwork. Usually they just throw the mail bag out the door of the plane on to our boat dock and off they go. So you gotta catch them also.

Also, you should know that the hole diameter in the center of those wads is larger then the screw diameter so to attach them to a keyed slug would mean yet another washer of some type. Or a screw with a larger head.

[longbow]

Those do look like the gas seals BPI lists. Oddly I had failed to find them when I went looking a while ago but found them last time!

uncle dino uses those on his swaged slugs.

I think what I'd do is modify a core pin so the right diameter post of lead stuck out to go through the hole then run a screw in. That or assemble in a form and use epoxy so the gas seal would be centered by the form and hole filled with epoxy around a screw or pin. Once set it should be solid.

Yet another project that I likely won't get to for some time!

Thanks for the offer but I will locate what I need. Sounds like a lot of trouble for you! And here I complain about having trouble finding and getting stuff!

Longbow

[RED BEAR]

I use a .600 ball with 3 .31 balls for buck and ball load not problem keeping them on about a paper plate at 25 yds and center mass at 50 yrds. Have not tried double balls if memory serves thats around 1 1/2 oz. Let us know how it works.

[RED BEAR]

Judging what it does to the plywood backing at the range it would be bad news.

[GregLaROCHE]

There’s a video on YouTube. I think they were even factory loaded. It was obvious, two is twice as good as one. Great idea for home defense.

[Wiley D]

Didn't some of the old timers cast piano wire into both balls tying them together to keep ball spread and penetration to a minimum?

Ooh! Just take a 2 cavity mold and mill a slot on one side between the cavities. Then take sections of wire with keeper knots on the ends, drop them in the slot, and cast balls as per normal. Or drill holes out the bottom where the halves meet and use longer wire sections for an instant bolo round. That'd be fun to shoot at some trees you wanted to get rid of...

[longbow]

I'v never tried the wire or cable and large balls but did try small diameter piano wire and SSG split shot many years ago. It didn't work well for me.

Also, as a side note, if using steel wire, spring tempered or not like piano wire, I would make sure you use a steel shot wad to keep that steel away from your bore... unless you don't like the gun! I'd think small diameter cable would be better than piano wire anyway.

As for self defense with these rounds, my thought is bear protection ~ 2 large balls have more frontal area than one larger ball or slug. Penetration... well, the jury is out on that one but I'd figure 0.600" RB's at 1200 or so FPS would do okay in the penetration department. If these 2 ball loads group well enough out to at least 25 yards and preferably further then I'll so some comparison testing with 0.678" and 0.735" RB's for penetration.

I am hoping to never have to use one of these or other loads for bear protection but better safe than sorry! Our bear populations of both black bears and grizzly bears are increasing or at least more sightings by me and people I know. I am getting nervous when berry picking these days!

A bear will get the most lead and velocity I can give him but for home defense, I'd not use slugs or RB's unless at subsonic/light load as I think they would tend to go through a bad guy and several walls, as well as whoever may be between those walls... or next door. 00 buck at moderate velocity or one of the smaller buckshot loads should be all a guy needs to stop the bad guy without putting others in the home, or neighbours, at risk. My thought anyway.

Yes, I have seen those factory 2 ball loads. I can't recall if diameter was mentioned but they were factory rounds. Also, SIARM has 2 and 3 ball "sabots" that stack the balls directly above each other and keep them contained. I e-mailed SIARM to see if they ship to Canada but no response.

Longbow

[GregLaROCHE]

I saw something on YouTube about the two balls held together with a wire. As I remember, they weren’t that great, because one ball worked against the other.

[r6487]

with the lee rb molds you can drill a hole out the bottom just small enough to run in picture hanging braided cable, to make the bolo rounds. What I discovered is the cable hole is so small you can still cast normally without having a lead sliver or finger trying to go down the hole, when no inserting cable for bolos. Kinking a v in cable then casting with it centered in the cavity works fine. Another thing, shooting short distances into cardboard, having a 12"-15" cable between the 2 balls is a waste, due to lack of spread. I've decided for 2 ball or 3 ball having as short a wire distance as possible is better, so they can't spread but rather are forced to group for best effect. I don't think the bolo effect works until they're out to a least 35-40 yds where spread is great enough to make bolo effect possible.

[GregLaROCHE]

All these things are interesting, but are they really better than 00 buck shot?

[Ginsing]

Yes they will penetrate much, much deeper than 00 buck. Have you ever seen a brown bear in real life? You feel undergunned no matter what you are carrying, I would not even consider buckshot as a bear round.

[longbow]

Personally I'd say not. A 2 ball load with cable may hold the balls together for more effective long range impact but I suspect the cable would limit penetration so limiting usefulness of the tighter group... at least in the context of bear protection.

Buck and ball was an effective payload for use against people which are thin skinned and relatively small and wounding with a small ball was better than nothing but for bear protection my view is that wounding with a small ball is likely to be worse than a miss. Also, for bears or other dangerous game my impression is that penetration is the goal and balls on cables, smaller balls or buckshot are not going to penetrate as well as larger balls all else being equal. This is generally a fairly close range situation so extreme accuracy is not required, large frontal area and penetration are the main goal.

For home defense I'd say penetration should be limited so as not to endanger anyone else due to misses or pass throughs that can carry on through walls so small shot and again at such close range the shot will not spread out so much you'd need a wire or cable... in my opinion anyway.

My goal is a good payload for bear protection so single ball/slug, 2 ball load or Tri-Ball load are what I'll be looking at.

Once our weather improves I'll get to the range with some of the 2 ball loads.

Longbow

[Petander]

Big and accurate is good.

I fired some of my 12 gauge Economy Paractise Slugs (Lyman 525 using factory trap rounds) just to see If I can hit anything with those. At only 1200 fps they hit pretty hard, 10 mm steel in the pic @ 40 yds.

Attachment 234699.

[longbow]

Petander:

On the roll crimp thread you said you are using those 525 gr. slugs to replace 1 oz. shot loads? 525 gr. is closer to 1 1/4 oz.

I'm guessing you are not seeing any pressure issues like sticky extraction?

I realize that slugs tend to produce less pressure than shot but that is a fairly large weight increase especially over what is likely a fast powder.

I recall that TonyfromItaly (IIRC) said it is common practice in Europe to use birdshot load data plus 15% more powder for slug of equal weight. Not sure if that is a "universal" rule of thumb but it certainly indicates that slug pressures are significantly lower than shot load pressures.

Anyway, just curious about that big weight difference and pressures. It is obviously working for you.

Longbow

[GregLaROCHE]

Yes they will penetrate much, much deeper than 00 buck. Have you ever seen a brown bear in real life? You feel undergunned no matter what you are carrying, I would not even consider buckshot as a bear round.

As a matter of fact I have seen quite a few brown bears. I one counted twenty three in one night going down a river where I once lived.

My buck shot comment was referring to two legged bears. I wouldn’t trust anything except a high power slug against a bear. I always preferred a high powered rifle over a shot gun for bear protection.

[Petander]

Petander:

On the roll crimp thread you said you are using those 525 gr. slugs to replace 1 oz. shot loads? 525 gr. is closer to 1 1/4 oz.

I'm guessing you are not seeing any pressure issues like sticky extraction?

I realize that slugs tend to produce less pressure than shot but that is a fairly large weight increase especially over what is likely a fast powder.

I recall that TonyfromItaly (IIRC) said it is common practice in Europe to use birdshot load data plus 15% more powder for slug of equal weight. Not sure if that is a "universal" rule of thumb but it certainly indicates that slug pressures are significantly lower than shot load pressures.

Anyway, just curious about that big weight difference and pressures. It is obviously working for you.

Longbow

No issues at all. I've been doing this on and off for 20+ years with different shot weight & slugs. Wad petals do get toasted in this particular 525 version but accuracy is "tolerable" for my practise. But I didn't put anything under the slugs this time.My alloy is 16 bhn.

Using equal weight slugs to replace shot gives very mild loads. I did 20 gauge Two Ball loads in 1 oz loads,too.

I might get some of these pressure tested with my TSS loads,I just found a place that sells TSS and is willing to test.

Attachment 234726

[longbow]

Well that is interesting. Now I am curious if there is a "safe" rule of thumb for increasing solid projectile weight over the birdshot weight.

From what I have seen comparing various load data it seems that fast powders tend to spike in pressure with relatively small changes of increased payload, reduced cushion leg (volume) or similar "resistances" are added where slow powder (most of my experience is with Blue Dot) do not so much. No surprise I guess but without pressure testing equipment hard to predict results.

Just thinking if the 15% more powder is a "safe" rule of thumb what weight increase might be acceptable for a given safe charge for birdshot load. In your case the weight increase is about 17%... or a bit less with your alloy since it is running 16 BHN so not pure lead.

I'll have to check and see if we have anyone who does pressure testing in Canada. I only know of a couple of places in the States and I'd have to check about legality of shipping loaded rounds for testing both in Canada and across the border. Not sure if a few rounds is acceptable or not. Generally explosives and propellants of any kind are a problem for shipping.

Alternately maybe I should invest in pressure testing equipment. It isn't that horribly expensive nowadays.

We'll see!

Longbow

[Markopolo]

Anything that goes airmail is a no no... and not sure about ground shipping ove the border? Can you receive powder and primers from the USA ground?

[longbow]

Hahaha! NO!!

Homeland security shut that down after 9/11. A non US citizen cannot be in possession of reloading components including empty brass in the States now unless you have a valid hunting license or are attending a shoot and you cannot leave the country with any ammunition or reloading supplies!

It is also illegal for US citizens to export any reloading components across the border. For example it is technically a federal crime if you mailed me a single cast bullet or shotgun slug if you don't have an FFL. Homeland Security could arrest you. I doubt they would but they could. It is not illegal for me to bring said components into Canada though. I just can't do it from the States anymore which really put a crimp into my cross border shopping!

I am not sure about the legality of mailing loaded rounds both in Canada and in the States. I know people mail order powder down there so with HAZMAT papers that can be done and likely in Canada as well but across the border, I do not know.

I'll check it out. If I can mail some rounds to Tom Armbrust for pressure testing I'd like to do that.

Longbow