0.600" Two Ball Load

[longbow]

Okay then, I finally got the 2 ball loads put together.

I loaded up 10 in CSD wads with paper wraps to snug the balls up some and 10 loaded up in Uniwads that Hogtame sent me to try for round balls. I didn't get very good results with round balls and had some left over so they are getting used now. The CSD wads are perfect depth for two 0.600" balls but slightly large diameter. I want to keep the RB's lined up so used some paper wrap to do it.

The Uniwads are a bit short and also slightly large diameter so I used a wrap of old shogun hull cut to suit and slightly longer than the shotcup.

I used 2 3/4" Federal plastic hulls with paper basewad, federal 209A primers (all we can get here right now) and 29 grs. (Lee dippers) of Blue Dot. This seems like a safe and sane load from researching heavy shot loads.

Now when the weather warms up just a bit I'll get these tested. Probably in a week.

Longbow

[longbow]

I'll say it again... Yay ! I finally got to the range! (previously stated in the Brenneke'ized Lee slug thread).

I took out some Brenneke'ized Lee slugs and 10 of the 2 ball loads today and did some blasting.

Details:

- Gun: Mossberg Slugster with smoothbore barrel 18 1/2" long; cylinder bore; rifle sights
- Hulls: Federal Field hulls 2 3/4" with paper basewad
- Primer: Federal 209A
- Wad: CSD wad slit in 4 places and with 3 wraps of paper inside to snug up fit of 0.600" RB's
- Powder: Blue Dot at 29 grs.
- 2 x 0.600" RB's cast from ACWW
- roll crimped with over shot wad

25 meter groups were not bad I don't think but I had trouble at 50 meters due to the gun shooting about 1' high and a lack of targets. I traveled light this time as I had to haul everything up hill about 100 meters in the snow. The 50 meter target was already used for Brenneke'ized Lee slugs and I couldn't seem to get the 2 ball loads to hit where I was aiming so I have to guess groups were large and very high. Since the load did well at 25 meters I will try again and use a large target at 50 yards to catch the group.

As for shooting so high that is my fault. I recently filed the rear leaf a little wider and deeper to get a better sight picture, which it did, though I have to widen a bit more. Unfortunately I left the rear sight too high when I finished so that made things difficult and I didn't have a screwdriver to reset the sight! That traveling light thing. DOH!

Anyway, it seemed to me to be an impressive load with rather stout recoil but more or a push that rocked me back than a jab so tolerable. The intent is for bear protection and I suspect it is plenty good for that! I didn't chronograph but will be testing some more of these so once the snow is gone I'll haul the chronograph up the hill to the range.

Recovered CSD wads were in poor shape with distorted gas seals. One wad was shredded! I am guessing that the wads tried to wrap around the bottom ball as the damage is similar to what I saw when using larger round balls in shotcups with no nitro card wads or COW under the balls.

I didn't include a nitro card wad in these loads because not only didn't I have any that would fit the thick petal CSD wads but the two balls took up all the room there was. I should have put a small scoop of COW under the bottom ball though, just to fill in around the ball to keep the wad supported. Next time!

Target pics (all at 25 meters):



I shot the 3 groups at 25 meters then tried at 50 meters but groups were high and large so no decent targets to post. Looking at the wads I am sure a better wad/wad support will improve things and likely give decent 50 meter groups... or at least tighten 25 meter groups and beyond a ways which is all that is required for a bear stopper load.

I shot some at a rock about 75 meters out and while the impact was high both balls seemed to be reasonably close together. I'll have to do some more work then test at 50 meters and beyond. Targets don't lie!

These 2 ball loads did well enough for me to want to load some more and try to better groups but I'd take these as is for what they are loaded for. I would also like to do some penetration testing to see how they fair against a Lee or other HB slug.

While recoil was substantial I do not think the load was near max. There was no sticky extraction or flattened primers. I'm pretty sure the powder charge could be safely increased as the payload is really more of a slug and about 625 grs. so based on payload weight the powder charge could be increased several grains. I will do some more research into equal payload recipes to see what I can find but this was no slouch load either! I'm sure it would leave a mark on a bear!

Longbow

[Petander]

That's good,isn't it?

I'd be happy with such a small spread - I've done some 20 gauge double ball experiments but there seems to be a "stray ball" every now and then.

This whole slug thing is lots of fun really.

[longbow]

At 25 meters the spread wasn't bad and certainly good enough for bear protection.

At 50 meters I couldn't get results because they shot over the target through the backing board but it was so full of holes I couldn't tell which were mine. I should have taken more targets! Next time I'll take a couple of large pieces of paper and aim at a target in the middle so I can get a better idea of spread at 50 meters.

It turns out I had inadvertently left my rear sight kinda high after filing the notch wider so that didn't help either!

The wads were in very bad shape though so I am sure that was detrimental to tight groups at longer ranges. I'll use something under the bottom ball next time. This load using CSD wads that had almost no cushion leg just allowed the two balls to fit and crimp properly. I could add a small scoop of COW to fill in around the bottom ball and that should support the wad. The gas seals had obviously try to wrap around the ball so were quite distorted and one wad was all shredded and burned.

While I am pretty sure the powder charge could be safely increased, this was not a mild load... judging from recoil anyway!

I'll do some more playing but I need some deep wads now before I load these again.

I'll focus on slugs in the mean time. Winter is grinding down now so weather will be better and snow up the hill to the range gone in a couple or three weeks so easier access. It really wasn't too bad but making three trips up and down that hill is no fun!

Yes, slugs and balls are fun!

Longbow

[qwiksting]

Which CSD wads? I am getting back into it again. 2 .600 RB or 1 .600rb with #4 buckshot.

[longbow]

Not sure to be honest! They were sent to me by Greg Sappington with a bunch of other stuff about 10 years ago. I've shot all now I think but will check. No big bag with info on it, just a zip lock bag with a few wads.

I have to think they are CSD 100's which are 1 oz. steel at 1.221" deep. Let's put it this way, two 0.600" RB's stacked perfectly in them for height so that would be 1.2".

I have to order everything in since there is nothing locally available so I don't get to go look and play with stuff before I buy it... or even buy and take it home to play with it. Just order and hope.

The hulls were range pick up Federal field hulls with paper basewad and with 29 grs. of Blue Dot they crimped well. I think I could up the charge by a few grains and still get a decent crimp but it would be nice to be able to put a nitro card wad in the bottom of the shotcup. Maybe a less bulky powder would allow a little heavier charge and leave a bit more room. Once again, I buy the powder that is available if and when it is available locally. The local gun shop doesn't stock any shotgun stuff but they have a few suitable powders. I can generally pick up Unique and Blue Dot.

There may be better combinations of powder, wad and hull but without access to look I don't know. This just happened to work out fairly well with what I had on hand. I'll be ordering more CSD wads to try again.

The wads were in poor shape with a couple in very bad shape so better support is needed. With these wads about all I can do is to put a scoop of COW under the bottom ball so it keeps the wad and gas seal form distorting around the ball. I should have for seen that coming as I have seen the same problem with round ball "slug" loads so use a nitro card wad and a scoop of COW under the ball. A deeper wad would help as then I could put a 1/8" 20 ga. nitro card wad on the bottom then a scoop of COW but that means a different powder to provide similar loading at less volume or go to 3" hulls.

They did well enough at 25 yards to be decent bear stoppers, I think, and that was the intent. Tighter groups would be better and extend the useful range though.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

Kent, try a 20 ga card glued in the bottom of the wad next to the powder and one in bottom of shot cup (that may take a 28 ga depending on taper) to eliminate the wad problem. I think that load is a better candidate for a 3" hull too.

[longbow]

Hal:

I don't think there is room for the cards with the components and powder charge I have. I'd have to check on those wads but they are thick petal so it would be at least 20 ga. and maybe 28 ga. to fit a nitro card wad in the bottom.

I don't think I have any more of those CSD wads and even if I do it won't be many. I'll have to order more.

The two balls in that wad and powder charge fit well and allowed good crimp but I think all I can do is add a scoop of COW (okay... or grits) under the bottom ball. That may do it and I will try before making other changes. It seemed like a skookum load as is and handy being in a 2 3/4" hull. If I were to go 3" hull I'd likely go Tri-Ball but maybe not with quite the hefty powder charge James listed. Or maybe use 0.575" RB's to lighten the load just a bit. Mind you mass = penetration so... I wouldn't mind trying some two ball loads with 0.662" RB's. They fit tightly in CSD wads so should be a good fit to bore and no chance of wedging. That at modest velocity should still pack a punch.

If I need the nitro card wad under the bottom ball I will likely have to lower the powder charge, find a denser powder or go to 3" hulls. Certainly 3" hulls would allow more room for the payload with card wad under the bottom ball and a wad between balls too. But I think I would go with the 0.662" RB's in 3" hull. That would be a bit lighter payload than three 0.600" RB's but more mass in each ball. Might not be as effective as Tri-Ball at longer ranges but for bear protection at close range might be better with two bigger balls at same velocity.

The weather is starting to warm up here sort of... -10° C last night but only -1° C today. Pretty soon we'll be above freezing every day and snow will melt. It has been a long cold winter here. Global warming my....! Anyway, I'll be using that Slugster a little more soon. Still got things to try.

Longbow

[Markopolo]

You need my washer wads I think... it’s just the ticket to make these things fly.

[longbow]

If they are the ones I think they are they would be too thick... at least for the CSD wads I have and any deeper wad, I think I'd have to go to 3" hulls. The goal here was a two ball 2 3/4" hull load.

I'm not disappointed with the results so far either. With either better wads or better wad support they should do just fine and really for the intended purpose I think they did okay. Even if I don't get better longer range groups I'll load some more and do some penetration testing to see how they compare to larger slugs/balls.

I should shoot some through the chronograph too and see what sort of velocity I am getting. If 1200 FPS or better then they will probably be pretty effective. A 0.678" RB at 1500/1600 FPS is going to penetrate better though. However, if they do well enough to inspire confidence in me that's good enough... for me.

True enough, for bear stoppers why not 3" hulls? Well, I wanted to see what two balls in 2 3/4" hulls would do mostly. And two 0.600" balls scooting along are a formidable projectile(s). That and less recoil = faster recovery time if needed.

Longbow

[Markopolo]

This is what I was gunna PM you before I received that your PM storage is FULL.. time to clean house..

Have you considered what might happen with 3in hulls?? Why not give it a try just to see why not? If you playing with your balls anyway, why not load a few in 3in while your loadin the others? What if you stumble upon a “wow” load while looking for that 2 3/4 load? Just saying. I would throw some of them washer wads in a envelope for you and gladly drop them in the mail when I go to town on Friday..... all I need is your address....

Mark

[Drm50]

We had a local fooling around with ball & multi ball loads in 23/4" & 3". He blew a Moss when his wad system caused some kind of wedging effect and forced the bolt lock to tear out top of action. Barrel was not damaged.

[longbow]

Mark:

If you would let me know what those wads are I can order from BPI. I have to get an order in anyway. If they are the "gas seal" with the hole they are pretty thick though they would work as a donut wad in deeper hulls.

Yup! Better clean out some PM's I guess!

Drm50:

Yes, this was a concern raised by people loading Tri-Ball loads per Dixie instructions ~ to use hardened balls and buffer to stop the wedging action. The two ball load I put together is different in that I used a sleeve inside the CSD wad to keep both balls directly stacked in line so they cannot wedge. Yes, I am sure there is some give when booted in the butt by 10,000 PSI but the balls are essentially in line so very little wedging action. Not saying it couldn't happen but I think not. I do appreciate the concern and warning though.

Longbow

[Markopolo]

This is them LB..




Not sure what they are called anymore... bought a bag of 500 I believe 8 years ago... don’t have the bag... they are gas seal. And did come from BPI...

Found them...Here they are...

And the Link...
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/HB...tinfo/072HB12/

Hope this all helps... make them things group and fly..

[longbow]

Yup! I think you showed me those before. Those are the same "gas seals" (gas seal with a hole?) I tried to order about 3 years ago from the Canadian BPI rep to use on some Brenneke'ized slugs. he could figure out what they were for some reason and I got distracted with family issues so never completed that order.

I think those are only available in 12 ga. full bore and 20 ga. I doubt the 20 ga. would fit in the bottom of a CSD wad which was my goal with 2 ball loads. Plus they are pretty thick.

Now if I could cut some ABS pipe or some form of plastic tube to use a s a split sleeve/sabot for full bore with two 0.600" RB's in it and on top of one of those that might work. There's all sorts of stuff a guy can do if he machines everything but it is time consuming and I am lazy!

By the way, thanks for the offer I do appreciate it. I can order from Alberta though so easier all around... if Will can figure out what they are anyway.

I'll order some CSD wads, full bore felt wads and a few other things shortly. I may add some of those to the list to give them a try. I still like the idea for an attached wad to Brenneke like slug similar to what Uncle Dino has done with his swaged slugs. That was my intent when I first saw those 3 or 4 years ago.

I'd like to play with the two ball loads some more or even Tri-Ball loads. What's a little more recoil induced brain damage going to harm anyway... wait... what was I saying?

Longbow

[Drakehammer]

Here’s my .60 cal Tri-Ball load shot yesterday at 40 yards. Very similar to the Dixie recipes that are floating around out there. I just recommend you follow suggestions very closely as they really matter. Good luck.


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[Markopolo]

Whooooooaaaaaaaa there Drake... ok, we see you got them shooting... wads look pretty good too.. nice groupings.... but you can’t just throw them pics down and walk away!!!! More INPUT Needed.... tell tell!!! Details.. Gun and Choke, powder and colum, and shell... ..

Pleaseeeeeee Marko

[Drakehammer]

Lol. I posted some info on a separate thread. Tried to post last night but I was unsuccessful attaching pics until I connected through Tapatalk.


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[Drakehammer]

Marko I load a lot of buckshot, steel, and tungsten (TSS, HW-15, etc) so I’m pretty familiar with the heavy duty wad selection out there, including the CSD series. I will say that CSD series is probably the thinnest and weakest of the bunch. As far as current production, the TUPRW series from Precision Reloading is the toughest wad available in my opinion. Thats what Dixie recommends, and I concur. I will work on a 2 3/4” Di-Ball load today or tomorrow.

[6pt-sika]

Something else too... it turns out that 0.882" RB's and some of my home made slugs are perfect fit into CSD wads and cut down some they may make an decent Brenneke like slug.

I might be missing something but isn't .882" a misprint ? I wouldn't shoot a .882" roundball thru a 10 gauge and more then likely not even an 8 gauge .