0.600" Two Ball Load

[Drakehammer]

I might be missing something but isn't .882" a misprint ? I wouldn't shoot a .882" roundball thru a 10 gauge and more then likely not even an 8 gauge .

Agreed. I think .682 was intended.


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[longbow]

Yeah, sorry... poor keyboard skills. Should read 0.662" (16 ga. nominal ball), not 0.882". That would be a tight fit (extruded fit?) in a 12 ga.

I bought several Lyman moulds some years ago from TOW: 0.662", 0.715". 0.735" I already had 0.690" and have since bought a 0.678" so have the 12 ga. round balls "surrounded" for single ball loads.

The 0.662" RB's might make a decent 2 ball load for 3" hulls. That's 0.662" not 0.882" RB's... yup, I checked this time... 0.662". I get it right sometimes!

Overall, not sure if a 2 ball load would be as effective as Tri-Ball but like I said, 2 larger balls carry more weight each to should provide better penetration for a given velocity and at same velocity as Tri-Ball should pack a little less recoil. That is my logic anyway.

For 2 3/4" hulls I think 0.600" or close is about the limit. There are moulds available in 0.610" and, I think 0.620", that might fit and every bit of extra weight is a bonus. Much more diameter = more length so I think you'd be into a 3" hull.

0.662" RB's are a tight fit into a CSD wad so would stack well for a 3" hull and wedging shouldn't be an issue. Even if they expanded a bit the thick petals shoul dgive some.

Just thoughts as yet untested.

Longbow

[EVR]

I want in on this one.

I'm curious about AA and STS/Gun Club hulls and 2-ball loads.

Like you longbow I was finagling around with some PVC pipe and got to thinking a piece sawed in half might cradle a 2-ball load and keep them from wedging.

[longbow]

I am hoping to be playing with this some more shortly. Kinda went back to slugs for a bit because I have what I need. Got to order wads for the 2 ball and Tri-Ball loads.

Not sure why I didn't follow James' advice on the Tri-Ball style wads from Precision Reloading. He said they are the only ones that hold up for Tri-Ball loads. I'm sure they make different depth shotcups but even if not I can trim petals to suit 2 3/4" hulls for 2 x 0.600" RB's. What I had on hand were a few CSD wads so I went with those. I was pretty impressed with what I got even though it wasn't spectacular, but for a first try it seemed pretty decent and for bear protection out to 25 or maybe 30 yards I'm thinking pretty effective.

I would like to try 2 x 0.662" RB's in 3" hulls too. If those stay close enough together (say 6" or so) out to 50 yards or so they'd be devastating.

Have you looked at the SIARM site in Europe? Not sure what country they are in or based in but they have 2 ball carriers. I tried their contact form to see if they ship to Canada but got no response. i'll have to try again.

I'm thinking that instead of the Dixie recipe using buffer, it makes more sense to me to use a wrap of paper, Teflon, Mylar or whatever to fill the space so the balls line up over each other and don't wedge. The only benefit I can see for letting them wedge is that the payload might be a bit shorter.

I used... what did I say... 3 wraps or 4 wraps of paper then slit it through the petal slits using a razor knife. Pretty quick and easy and it worked. Makes a bit of confetti mess but works.

Once I get my stuff together I'll try again.

Longbow

[EVR]

OK:

So I cast 214 Lee .600's. Used newspaper to roll into "sabots" fitting inside WAA12R wads and loaded in AA hulls over Longshot powder, using a powder charge for 1 1/2 oz payload. Compressed the wad in order to obtain max "storage space" inside the hull. Fired 3 rounds at 40 meters.

1} payload was still too long and assembled rounds were undercrimped {crimp would not fully close}
2} pattern was non-existent. I saved the target and was going to post but there's no reason. First shot put two balls within about 8 inches. 2nd and 3rd shots placed on hole on an approximately 20"x20" piece of cardboard.

Results are so bad at this point I don't see any reason to continue with that method at all. In first place, the balls simply do not fit the hulls with that wad, so something entirely different deeds to be worked out.

I welcome all suggestions...

[lrdg]

Didn't some of the old timers cast piano wire into both balls tying them together to keep ball spread and penetration to a minimum?

Sounds like cannon "Chain Shot" or "Bar Shot".

[longbow]

I'd have to say wad problems.

I used the last of the CSD wads I had and have to order new wads. These CSD wads were deep and really no cushion leg, just a bit of a spacer. I should have put a small nitro card wad under the ball but didn't because not only didn't I have any small enough (28 ga. maybe?) but the bottom of the cup is very rounded. However, recovered wads showed blown gas seals and distorted wad.

My groups/patterns weren't bad for what I shot and I think showed promise so I'll be doing this again when I get time. Got three archery shoots coming up so haven't gotten back to this yet but will.

I am thinking that like the Dixie Tri-Ball loads the wads take a beating. James said not to use any wads except the Precision Reloading wad http://www.precisionreloading.com/ca...!l=TUPR&i=W123 as they just wouldn't stand up.

I am not sure why the wad makes such a difference when pressures are within normal ranges but apparently they do.

If you haven't read the Tri-Ball threads you should. People have tried other things and posted results but it seems that James was right on the wads. What I don't like about the Tri-Ball recipe is the buffer... but that's just me. The purpose is to keep the balls stacked and from wedging by supporting them but it seems to me that with a cylinder bore a wrap with paper or Teflon or other plastic will do that and since no choke no need to worry about squeezing through a choke though I think Teflon would do that too. Just untried opinion on my p[art though.

What did your recovered wads look like? I am guessing the cushion leg crushed unevenly and gas seals may have blown. I found out how that works when loading 0.735" RB's. If I used a shotcup with petals cut off under the ball the top face (bottom of the shotcup) would be badly distorted and often cracked because the wad tries to extrude itself around the ball without the support of a nitro card wad or two. Same with loading 0.662" or 0.678" balls in shotcups. Without that nitro card wad wads often fail... at least with any I tried. I always add a nitro card wad under RB's... except for this two ball load but it'll get one next time.

Next time out I'll be using the TUPRW123 wads and support under my bottom ball.

Something else I'd like to try but not sure if they will ship to Canada is:

http://www.siarm.com/product_info.ph...l1oa5t6scfkif0

The two ball wad/sabot at the top of the page. They do them in three ball two. That should solve a lot of problems if available! I e-mailed them but got no response. I'll try again.

If the two ball load doesn't work for you try the Tri-Ball load as it is a proven performer. I just wanted to try a slightly less brain jarring two ball load for 2 3/4" hulls.

Longbow

[Petander]

That wad looks very interesting,thanks for the tip Longbow.

Siarm seems to be out of stock,though.

.

Siarm is in Italy and most probably ships anywhere you like. If not, I can help with the wads when they have them again. I have ordered from then a couple of times.

[dsh1106]

That wad looks very interesting,thanks for the tip Longbow.

Siarm seems to be out of stock,though.

.

Siarm is in Italy and most probably ships anywhere you like. If not, I can help with the wads when they have them again. I have ordered from then a couple of times.

I'd be interested in those !

[dsh1106]

Here's another video from TAOFLEDERMAUS
12 gauge 2 ball load, it's larger than .600s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7RhoBWXXVo

[EVR]

I'd have to say wad problems.

Basically, I agree.

What did your recovered wads look like?

I didn't fetch them as I was heading out to shoot some bait and frankly, because the load was a poor fit, didn't care much.

I am guessing the cushion leg crushed unevenly and gas seals may have blown.

That makes a lot of sense. There is lots of support, but as you suggest, it seems to be in the wrong areas...too much as it turns out as they are too thick to handle 2 .600's inside the AA hull and maybe not hard enough to support the ball.

I always add a nitro card wad under RB's... except for this two ball load but it'll get one next time.

The stack is already too thick, so it's back to the drawing board for me.

Next time out I'll be using the TUPRW123 wads and support under my bottom ball.

Is this wad compatible with the tapered AA hull in some sort of known small-shot load?

If the two ball load doesn't work for you try the Tri-Ball load as it is a proven performer. I just wanted to try a slightly less brain jarring two ball load for 2 3/4" hulls.

My goal is a standard recoil 2 3/4 inch shell using the AA hull. That's the goal, anyhow. I figured I'd try to assemble something that has SOME amount of potential using standard components and charge then send off for pressure testing. Not really sure if it is possible w/ the AA hull. Might place a call to BPI next week.

Longbow

Thanks for the input. Amazing how complicated something like this can be.

The Warwolf stuff looks good but I really want a medium recoil .600 ball load. I am itching for a hunting load as I retired shotguns for home defense years ago. So I have some accuracy requirements that need to be taken into consideration, too. If HD was the only thing I was concerned with the 15-foot +- distances involved would place a pretty low demand on that.

[Markopolo]

Yikes.... them warwolf rounds looked effective, but recoil from hel... how do you get back on target from something like that... but with over 2oz of lead, hopefully you wouldn’t need to...

[longbow]

Not sure about tapered hulls like Win AA and those wads. Like I said, I suggest reading some of the Tri-Ball load threads and follow those recipes/components but reduced to suit 2 3/4" hulls.

My load was quite sane and safe and performed not badly but the wads did look a little beaten up with some blown gas seals so a tougher wad is in order. Those were CSD steel shot wads. They are deep thick cup with almost no cushion leg so room for the 2 balls.

Those WW AA12R wads you tried have too long a cushion leg and aren't a tough enough wad. I had poor results shooting any type of wad slug using WW AA reds. Lots of gas seal failures and the plastic seems "soft".

For these heavy two and 3 ball loads I think steel shot wads are the best approach and that is what the TUPR W123 wad James recommended is. They are tougher wads and thicker petals so not as much room around the balls as standard wads.

I'll have to re-watch the Taofledermaus video on those 2 ball loads. IIRC they are 0.690" RB's? Substantial anyway! After shooting the 2 balls of 0.600" with a not particularly heavy powder charge I'd think recoil of heavier balls or Tri-Balls must be quite something!

James' approach was to use buffer and a tight choke to get nice groups with Tri-Ball and I'll bet with 2 large balls of around 0.680"/0.690" wedging wouldn't be an issue, and if naked, they'd go through a full choke. They might be fairly easy to get to group together. It's just that huge payload is going to bring recoil with it!

I think I'll stick with the 2 ball loads.

Petander:

I'll try contacting SIARM again. They didn't respond last time. If I don't get a response I may take you up on your offer! I'd like to get some 2 and some 3 ball wads/sabots to try out.

Longbow