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Thread: Super Heavies in the 357 Max

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy curioushooter's Avatar
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    Super Heavies in the 357 Max

    Does anyone have any experience with slower powders, like from AA1680 to H4895, using heavy bullets, from 200-300 grains in the 357 Max?

    In particular I am looking for a start load for a 230 grain cast boolit in a T/C G2 Contender. There is AA1680 data out there from Western up to 200 grains, but nothing beyond. Would quickload work for guesstimating this?

    In fact, even 357 Mag data with these super heavy for caliber bullets might be useful.

    Thanks!

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

    Hamish's Avatar
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    I see that the '2000 edition, yellow front T/C load book shows 18-20 of 1680 at 1450-1650fps for a 210gr FNGC. Surely you could start at 17gr.

    Only caveat I see is 1680 produces quite a bit more pressure than 2230 and markedly more than 2015. Unsure where 2400 falls as far as pressure.
    More "This is what happened when I,,,,," and less "What would happen if I,,,,"

    Last of the original Group Buy Honcho's.

    https://youtu.be/a9ePkrmwT3c

    "Salient rules: Heavier the boolit, less twist is needed; more pointed a boolit, less twist is needed; longer the boolit, more twist is needed; the windier the condition, more twist is needed; longer the range, more twist is needed; more of a boattail, more twist is needed; more hollow the point, less twist is needed." ... felix

  3. #3
    Boolit Master Moleman-'s Avatar
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    I saw your post in the lilgun thread. While I have 1680 I don't use it in 357Max, but I do have a NOE 360-228FN mold that I shoot in it. What is your COL for that NOE 360-230RF?

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy curioushooter's Avatar
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    Hamish, the western powders load book has 200 grainers over 30 grains of AA1680 and it isn't even breaking 40k PSI. That's a 15% increase in bullet weight. Drop the charge 20% and you have 24 grains maximum charge. Drop it 30% and were at 21. Is that T/C book really conservative?

    Moleman, I don't have a NOE360-230RF. COL, however, is somewhat arbitrary in a Contender with a throat like the one I have. What do you use for your 360-228? I mean, I am not married to 1680. I just have it and it seems to be about the right burn rate for the application. I have some IMR3031...that seems too slow. I have some IMR-4198, which is close to 1680 but lacks it's density. I also have Win296/Lil'Gun/AA#9/2400...I think those are really too fast for bullets this heavy for caliber. Lil'Gun is very impressive with 180s. And it is the slowest of that bunch. 1680 is like it, but slower...and denser.

    I have some rye and winter wheat growing, too, Moleman! The weather here has been sunny and about 45 degrees...you can see the Rye growing. Our Gray Dogwoods are coming into bud! Last year this time it was -6!
    Last edited by curioushooter; 01-06-2019 at 01:40 AM.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master Moleman-'s Avatar
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    Was out walking in a winter wheat field yesterday with the Mrs. Was only up about an inch to inch and a half and we've had a mild winter. Had to hose mud off of my boots when I got home. Saw deer, turkey, squirrels and one fox.

    So far I've only shot the 228gr with Lilgun and W296 (and a few with W231 trying for a subsonic loading in my 9" pistol with a shorter freebore). Except for the pistol I've been using a COL of 2.100" with that bullet. I need to start casting again as I'm out of the NOE228's and down to less than 20 or so of the 208grWFN. I've been reluctant to try AA1680 as going by quickload data it can't touch what I'm getting with W296 and LilGun according to the magnetospeed. It could be a case where QL is wrong, but it's been pretty close so far with W296, 2400, LilGun and IMR4227.

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy curioushooter's Avatar
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    Well, I could be wrong. I don't have quickload. I am basically interoploating from 375 Winchester. The cases are the same shape, same peak pressure (well, in a G2). Matching a 250 grain .375 sectional density to a .358 leaves one with 228 grains. So reducing the .375 max charge purpotionate with reduction in case volume shoukd leave me with a max load of 1680. G2s are strong...in fact I shot mine with 375 Winchester and found it excessive and wasteful..even with a 15" barrel on it. Trying basically to get 44 mag performance from the max.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master Moleman-'s Avatar
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    Haven't ran these over the magnetospeed on the pistol, but average on a 15.5" barrel with the 360-228gr NOE FN 2.100 col, LilGun 1748-1800 fps at 49-57Kpsi.
    W296 was close at 48-57Kpsi, 1750-1830 fps. QL says you'd lose around 160-170fps with the 9" barrel on the top loads. This is why I'm reluctant to try 1680- 21.0gr AA1680 everything else the same with a 16" barrel QL shows 1672FPS, 46,720 PSI, 89.96% burn. 9" pistol would come in at 1544fps.

    In a strong action, there is no reason they can't be loaded up to 223 pressures.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master

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    Curious,

    Interesting that there is so much difference in the data, but yes, the '2000 data seems pretty conservative. Personally, I find the recoil pulse of 110/296 a little obnoxious so have been using 2400.

    Former CB member 357Maximum is a huge proponent of 300MP in the Max. At the point I start getting serious about switching from the Mag to the Max to hunt with in the Contender I will be switching to 300MP.
    More "This is what happened when I,,,,," and less "What would happen if I,,,,"

    Last of the original Group Buy Honcho's.

    https://youtu.be/a9ePkrmwT3c

    "Salient rules: Heavier the boolit, less twist is needed; more pointed a boolit, less twist is needed; longer the boolit, more twist is needed; the windier the condition, more twist is needed; longer the range, more twist is needed; more of a boattail, more twist is needed; more hollow the point, less twist is needed." ... felix

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy
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    Super Heavy in the 357 Max:

    357 Max / 300gr Swaged Coated Lead S6 Ogive / Projectile 1.258oal / VV N350 - 8.0gr / CCI SRP / Cartridge 2.3oal / 16" barrel / 1062fps

    Super quiet with a suppressor. Soft swaged lead expands on impact.
    Last edited by Meatpuppet; 01-08-2019 at 10:36 PM.
    Alcohol Inventory Reduction Specialist (Journeyman Level)

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy curioushooter's Avatar
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    Western Powders got back to me...a 215 cast boolit with a 23 grain max load with AA1680. I assume a contender only affair...
    I really should but some 300-MP, too.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master Moleman-'s Avatar
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    My 208gr RCBS cast come in around 215 lubed with a gas check. 2.140" Col, 23.0gr AA1680 , 33.6gr water capacity case, 40Kpsi, 1741fps QL guestimate out of a 16" barrel 1576fps out of a 10" barrel. The stickler is going to be seating depth, 2.100" brings the PSI up to 45K, 2.050" brings it up to 52K. Again, they're just guesstimates but it has me curious as guys generally speak so highly about 1680 in 357Max and it doesn't look like the speed is there compared to faster powders. The last update I got from QL didn't have 300MP listed as I'm curious about it also.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Just a passing thought to throw out there.
    In a single shot isn't it worth while to get a bore rider design that minimizes the amount of case volume taken up by lead?

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy curioushooter's Avatar
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    Yea...bore riders are the mainstay. Also, because contender handguns are not so long of barrels, you generally don't run out of lube.
    I am aware of a load using H4895 and that massive 288 grain Lyman 358 borerider bullet. There is also that 200 grain Lyman borerider. Don't have that mold and my boolit mentor hates bore riders so I can't borrow it. Maybe I should check western bullet company.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    You could always design what you want and consult with a couple few mold makers to see if adding it to the line up would be smiled upon.
    That was the path I followed for the .45 Colt single shot.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check