Newbie Investigation

[1scooter]

I inherited from my father-in-law around 110# of lead and all of his reloading equipment about 30 years ago. I have used the reloading equipment and just now have decided that maybe I want to get into casting boolits. In going through the lead the ingots were marked with different letters/numbers. The largest quantity of ingots were stamped with an 80 20 and I was wondering if anyone might know what that might mean. Here are the other markings:
18/1
14/1
N2
W (or M, I thought maybe this meant wheel weights)
L (I thought maybe this was pure lead)

There are several bars that are unmarked, wheel weights, two big chunks of lead along with some range lead. I did read the article about using pencils to check the hardness of the lead and thought maybe I would just use that to get an idea of the hardness of each marking. How do I add tin and antimony to the pure lead to increase the hardness?

I know we may not be able to figure out what my father-in-laws markings mean, but I am hoping that there is a method to this that somehow corresponds to his markings.

Thanks,

[b2lee]

I'm going to take a stab at it here and see if I'm halfway right.

80 20 is an industrial lead used for joining metals that have a low operating temp....like car radiators. 20% Tin and 80% Lead
18/1 is 18 parts lead and 1 part Tin so about 5.5% Tin and 94.5% Lead
14/1 is 14 parts lead and 1 part Tin so about 7% Tin and 93% Lead
N2 should be the 90% Lead, 5% Tin, and 5% Antimony.
W probably means Wheel Weights...and the composition depends on the age of the wheel weights....but let's say 97% Lead, 1% Tin, and 9% Antimony as a best guess.
and L may mean Linotype which is 85% Lead, 4% Tin, and 12% Antimony.

Each one will have their place for what boolits you want to produce.

[nun2kute]

Percentages, or Parts. 18 parts pure Pb to 1 part Lino ? My guess is that the L stands for Linotype. Drop a W on the concrete, then drop an L on the concrete. The L is most likely going to give more of a ping than a thud. My guess Only ! I would suggest a lead hardness tester. I have the Lee, there are others. If you want to mix alloys together, you'll need to acquire a smelting pot. Or you can make your own and just buy a dipper. My opinion is, if your gonna cast boolits, a bottom pour is the way to go. I have a stash of Lino, bunch of WW and some Pure too. But I never found a reason to mix anything yet. All my boolits are straight WW. I have no idea what the 80-20 would be, or the N2. I hope I haven't made your more confused, I'm sure that someone who is more better at teaching will come along and help. And Welcome to the forum.

[lightman]

If you got his loading log book there may be a list of his alloys in it. Things like this have caused me to get better at marking my stuff.

[GregLaROCHE]

You might want to check their hardness. There is a simple and inexpensive test using different pencil hardnesses.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...s-with-pencils

[1scooter]

So the 80 20 seems to be the hardest. I am waiting for the pencils to come in so I can use them to determine the hardness of each. The 80 20 "pings" more than the L and L seems to be the softest so it may be pure lead. There were some wheel weights in with all of the lead (the wheel weights are 30 years old) and I think the W is probably wheel weights.

I did cast my first batch of 9mm using a Lee TC 124 gr mold using the 80 20 bars and the boolits actually weighed 120 gr - would this be because 20% is tin? Should the boolits actually weight 124 gr? I did water quench them after casting them.

Thanks everyone for the help.

[WHITETAIL]

What is on the mold is not always true.
It is accepted that if you get certified #2 lead
and make a few boolets with that mold the
boolits should be 124.
You do not have to sweat a few gr. either way.
As long as you do not go full throttle on your loads.

[GregLaROCHE]

Not unusual to have variance in weight, even with same alloy. Alloy temp and mold temp can play a part in boolit weights.

Congratulations on your first casting. You’re now on your way to a interesting and fun journey.

[daloper]

I went through this after my uncle passed his casting stuff down to me. I just got a Lee hardness tester and tested all his ingots and adjusted the hardness as needed. Most of his lead was up at 18+. He did give me same pure lead so I was able to bring it down to what I wanted to. I am still new so not sure what I need but 11 or 12 shoots good for me. I PC so I don't see any lead in the barrel. Could try taking it down around 10 but if it works why change. Always something new to learn.

Welcome to the madness.

[GregLaROCHE]

According to what I have recently read, if you really want to fine tune your BHN and have old alloy ingots, it would be better to recast the ingots and check their BHN. If you calculate the current BHN of the ingots and add pure lead to soften it when casting boolits, the boolits could turn out softer than you expected. This would be due to the old alloy softening when reheated.

In reality, if you are just starting out, this shouldn’t be too important. Start casting with what you have, mesure the hardness of the bullets and shoot them. With a little experience, you will figue out what works best for you and your guns.

[Dusty Bannister]

[QUOTE=GregLaROCHE;4541964]According to what I have recently read, if you really want to fine tune your BHN and have old alloy ingots, it would be better to recast the ingots and check their BHN. If you calculate the current BHN of the ingots and add pure lead to soften it when casting boolits, the boolits could turn out softer than you expected. This would be due to the old alloy softening when reheated.
------------------------------
I will have to disagree with this paragraph. The present hardness of the ingots is the maximum hardness after age hardening. This reading will not necessarily be the same as a bullet cast from this alloy at the same time and allowed to age harden over time. Usually bullets will read a little harder because of the different rate of cooling.

When you melt the alloy and cast into ingots, you will start the age hardening process all over again. You may also want to consider that if the production of the ingots is accelerated by cooling the ingot molds, that will also create an error in the hardness readings. It would be incorrect to assume that you will end up with a softer bullet because you made them from old ingots, but it would be likely that fresh cast bullets will read softer than the ingots, until they have age hardened after casting.

I am not really sure what you were addressing in the comment old alloy softening when reheated. From the way you stated the process, it would be more likely that your bullets would end up being harder than expected given sufficient time to age harden.

I do agree that it might be better to just learn to cast and then see if you do actually need to make adjustments in your alloy to better suit your purpose. Main thing is to ID any mystery metal so you make best use of your resources. Dusty

[1scooter]

I pencil tested all of my ingots and this is what I found:
18/1 - 3B / 10 BHN
14/1 - 3B / 10 BHN
N2 - B / 13 BHN
W - B / 13 BHN
L - 5B / 4-5 BHN
Mx - HB / 14-15 BHN
80 20 - HB / 14-15 BHN

I cast around 200 bullets from the 80 20 and quenched them so they are harder that HB/14-15 BHN just because I wanted to get started, but now am planning on getting a little bit more scientific. I have a pretty large quantity of 80 20 and W. Basically, I am looking at pouring based on the hardness I have without worrying about how to re-create the alloy or I can get them tested so I know the alloy and can re-create it. I am not a match shooter just wanting inexpensive rounds to send down range.

[Bazoo]

Pure lead/ tin alloy won't get harder from water quenching. Only an alloy with arsenic will benefit from being quenched.

[Dusty Bannister]

It is the Antimony. Arsenic helps the antimony work.

[Bazoo]

It must be running together on me.

[Traffer]

I would not smelt any together until you figure out what they are. Some of the individual elements in the alloys are far more expensive than lead. Tin for example is roughly ten times the value of lead by itself. If you have say 80/20 lead/tin, this would only need have a small amount mixed into a lead/antimony alloy to get the alloy where you want it. I would send some of the more curious stuff to BNE for XRF analysis.

[RogerDat]

I pencil tested all of my ingots and this is what I found:
18/1 - 3B / 10 BHN
14/1 - 3B / 10 BHN
N2 - B / 13 BHN
W - B / 13 BHN
L - 5B / 4-5 BHN
Mx - HB / 14-15 BHN
80 20 - HB / 14-15 BHN

I cast around 200 bullets from the 80 20 and quenched them so they are harder that HB/14-15 BHN just because I wanted to get started, but now am planning on getting a little bit more scientific. I have a pretty large quantity of 80 20 and W. Basically, I am looking at pouring based on the hardness I have without worrying about how to re-create the alloy or I can get them tested so I know the alloy and can re-create it. I am not a match shooter just wanting inexpensive rounds to send down range.

WW's with 1% to 2% tin make very good bullets. You are using 20% tin way overkill for no benefit and loss of useful and expensive alloy.

My guess is the same as the prior persons the 5 and 7 percent ratio of lead/tin would be about 10 BHN and typical of revolver bullet material, required alloy for completion black powder cartridge shooting where they only use lead/tin alloy as they would have back when the cartridge was the "new modern" brass cartridge. N2 is probably Lyman #2 which has BHN of around 15 with 5% each of tin and antimony, your L is plain lead hardness. W is about right but a bit high BHN for WW's . The Mx is a mystery. Tin adds a specific amount of hardness by percentage, the formula is available at rotometals. Should be able to see if that 20% tin would be enough to get the 80% plain lead to 14-15 BHN

Get the alloy calculator from the sticky in this forum. You want to add a small amount of that 80/20 to WW's to get them up to not more than 2% tin. Ok maybe 3% a lot of folks like 94/3/3 alloy. Using the alloy calculator makes those sort of adjustments easy. The N2 would make good to very good bullets if I'm not mistaken. Like rifle bullets for around 2k fps or magnum handgun. Your 18/1 or 14/1 I would try in revolver or 45 ACP bullets. Slower moving handgun rounds. Calibers with straight sides like 45 colt, 38 special, 45 ACP that don't have blistering velocity. That alloy would also probably expand very well as a hollow or cup point. Plain lead has a place in muzzle loading or cap and ball revolver as is. They require the soft lead.

Pencil test is semi-accurate and repeatable but I would expect a couple of digits either way is entirely possible. Still good job of getting a basic idea of what your hardness is, because that is what in the end you care about. Weight and hardness of the bullet.

[1scooter]

Thanks for all of the input everyone. My father-in-law loaded .357/.38 special and high power rifles in the .308 caliber along with .22 caliber. I will likely send some off for testing so that I will know the alloy as well as the hardness.

I have searched for a recipe for the Lee TL356-124-TC using Accurate No 7. I how do I find out what should the overall length of the cartridge be is what I am really wondering.

[RogerDat]

Thanks for all of the input everyone. My father-in-law loaded .357/.38 special and high power rifles in the .308 caliber along with .22 caliber. I will likely send some off for testing so that I will know the alloy as well as the hardness.

I have searched for a recipe for the Lee TL356-124-TC using Accurate No 7. I how do I find out what should the overall length of the cartridge be is what I am really wondering.

You can look online at the powder company web site and may find your answer in the load data they provide, but really you need at least one or two cast bullet reloading manuals. Lyman is a good one as is the Lee manual. The cast bullet manuals will give you COAL (cartridge over all length) and multiple powder and loads for CAST bullets. You can work from load data for jacketed or non-cast by using same or similar weight of bullet and bullet profile. Start at the low side of loads listed and work up watching for signs of excessive pressure.

Heavier bullet will build up more pressure behind it so it is generally safer to use load data for a bullet a little heavier, not safe to use load data for a bullet that is lighter. When I can or someone can see if that bullet is in a manual and maybe pass on the COAL, I'll try and do it next time I'm able to get to the bench. Not sure if I have anything for that bullet. That is not one I load so never looked it up.