Rizzo, well said.
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Rizzo, well said.
Some years ago, a man named John Walvoord was asked to write a book delineating every known prophecy in the Bible, with an explanation of what it meant, and whether it had been fulfilled or not. He did so, pointing out at the time of the book's publication that over half of the prophecies discussed had already been fulfilled.
No other religions writings can make that claim.
Yes, we are asked to accept Christ by faith, however, we are not left with that alone. There is evidence to support the claims of the Christian faith, if only we will look for it, examine it with an open mind, and ask God, in an attitude of prayer, to show us the truth.
Prophecies which make the claim that Christ was, and is God have been fulfilled. Prophecies which predict His Second Coming are being fulfilled daily, at an ever increasing pace.
I am not asking you to take my word for this. Instead, investigate the claims of Christ for yourself.
Christ did claim to be God, and he paid for that claim with His life. Christ also claimed that He would return at the end of the age to rescue His own from the coming judgment, and prophecy is being fulfilled daily in such a way as to validate that claim also.
What will your response be to the claims of Christ? You cannot remain on the fence forever, however much you might wish to.
As Billy Graham used to say, sooner or later, there comes in every life, "An hour of Decision".
"There is not a single instance in history in which civil liberty was lost, and religious liberty preserved entire. If therefore we yield up our temporal property, we at the same time deliver the conscience into bondage." --John Witherspoon, The Dominion of Providence Over the Passions of Men. 1776
"The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times." Psalm 12:6 (E.S.V.)
Good questions, the answers are not transparent so none of us can rightly be dogmatic about it but ... I think it can be rightly answered in a way that takes account of everything the Bible says about it.Originally Posted by wmitty
First, scripture says the soul/spirit of all mankind is immortal. It also says that everyone will be resurrected and granted new (physical) everlasting bodies. Differences is where and how those bodies will be for eternity - and WE make that decision for ourselves before our first death. (See John 3:18)
Now, there is little argument about the life of resurrected believers and being eternally with our Lord in God's Heaven. But few of us - including minsters - pay much attention to what is written about the fate of the lost; that makes the "second death" puzzling.
So, I define the second death as being eternally separated from God, including ALL of the good things that brings, specifically including but not limited to the following.
Heaven: No pain, no weaknesses
Hell: Constant pain, weakness
Heaven: Clear, bright sunny days
Hell: Eternally dark
Heaven: Fellowship with friends
Hell: Solitary confinement
Heaven: No decay or sickness
Hell: Constant corruption, worms
Heaven: Eternal songs of joy
Hell: Eternal moans, groans, wailing
Thus, the second death isn't being dead as we know it but an eternal life devoid of the good things of God. And THAT is a fate worse than death.
God is just. He will not punish everyone to the same hell. Instead each person called before the Great White Throne will be judged by what he/she did in life. I believe the hottest parts of Lake of Fire was the intended end of Satan (Lucifer) and his henchmen. Those humans who contributed to Satan's cause in major ways (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc.) are likely to be imprisoned next to their leader.
Unlike what the "fire and brimstone" preachers say, those lost souls who lived humanly moral and kind lives will NOT be seated in hell with the worst. To say otherwise would mean (1) God is not just and (2) there would be no real punishment for the workers of evil. Both are blasphemy.
Those who say there will be an eventual anilliation of those in the eternal hell simply aren't reading what the Bible says about it. And I, for one, don't think God much cares what men may say.
Last edited by 1hole; 03-04-2019 at 09:52 PM.
'"Come now, and let us reason together,"
Says the Lord,
"Though your sins are as scarlet,
They will be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They will be like wool."' Isaiah 1:18 (N.A.S.B.)
"There is not a single instance in history in which civil liberty was lost, and religious liberty preserved entire. If therefore we yield up our temporal property, we at the same time deliver the conscience into bondage." --John Witherspoon, The Dominion of Providence Over the Passions of Men. 1776
"The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times." Psalm 12:6 (E.S.V.)
Oh, I don't know about that. I have studied quite a bit and lean toward annihilation. There's evidence that points to both positions, but I give God the benefit of the doubt in the matter.
"The day you eat of the fruit, you will die." How did Adam and Eve understand the concept of death. I suppose they had seen animals die. God gave no suggestion of everlasting torment. In fact, Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden so they would not live forever in their fallen state. They died.
The idea of everlasting torment came from taking Jesus' parables much too literally. I clean up dead branches all the time by burning them. Once they are burned up, they cease to exist.
What "Doubt in the matter", what am I missing?
I know of no Biblical support for annihilation of the human soul, in fact the reverse is true ... repeatedly.
I fully agree that A & E probably had no concept of physical death; after all, it was they who brought physical death into the world. But it was the human body God said would die (until resurrection) while the human soul/spirit of all of us is as immortal as God himself."The day you eat of the fruit, you will die." How did Adam and Eve understand the concept of death. I suppose they had seen animals die.
No?? My Bibles say otherwise. And I've been through them page by page, including Numbers!God gave no suggestion of everlasting torment.
Well, their bodies sure died and will remain so until the resurrection of both lost and saved when body, soul and spirit will be reunited for eternal heaven or hell, each with living bodies. That's not my idea, it's in the Book.They died.
Really? Yes, Jesus truly used non-literal parables to illustrate literal truths but it was his messages that were truth, not the stories themselves. BUT when Jesus gave his disciples a glimpse of what the eternal heaven and eternal hell will be like he was NOT speaking a parable, therefore I believe he meant exactly what he said.The idea of everlasting torment came from taking Jesus' parables much too literally.
No matter God ever created ever ceases to exist, all matter eventually returns to it's component elements; so, your burned limbs no longer exist as limbs but that's not a meaningful argument to this question. I see no reason to believe branches, or even animals, were made in the spiritual and physical (Jesus) image of eternal God. To take your idea to the logical end would have us all totally extinguished at the first, i.e. physical, death and that just isn't the way the Book says it will be!I clean up dead branches all the time by burning them. Once they are burned up, they cease to exist.
Jesus, as the physical "son of man", spiritually died to pay the sin penalty for mankind but not to save us from our own physical death; thus we, like Adam, will die in this first death existence but our souls will never "die".
What Jesus did was experience the "spiritual" second death in our stead so we will never experience the hell of "life" apart from the good things of God and THAT'S the second (living) death hell of it!
When Jesus cried from the cross, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?!" and then, "It is finished" his physical task was done. At THAT moment Lord Jesus fully bought us for a price so we will never have to say "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"!
There is full reason we know those people who reject Jesus in this life condemn themselves (John 3:18) to the second death of conscious existence in some level of eternally abandoned (hellish) physical punishment depending on what was done in life. That's not my idea but I know it's true because Jesus said it. And I sure don't have the gonads to tell him he was mistaken!
Sadly, the lost will have no easy escape by eternal annilation.
We, like ignorant Adam, cannot understand the first death, we cannot fully understand the living second death where physically resurrected lost people have been fairly judged before the Great White Throne to live forever in some proper level of misery.
That's why I first asked how people define death in my first post.
For scriptural info on the eternal living second death see:
Mark 9:44-48
Rom 2:5-16
Rev. 2:11; 20:6-15; 21:8
(Note that there is no suggestion in that for any soul/body to be burned to a crisp and thereby peacefully destroyed in the Lake of Fire.)
Last edited by 1hole; 03-09-2019 at 06:55 PM.
I doubt I can change your mind on the subject. I once believed as you do and it was the one thing that really bothered me about the character of God. John told us that "God is love." Can a person wholly motivated by love subject a person to unending punishment for a finite number of sins? It seems incompatible to me. So I researched the topic.What "Doubt in the matter", what am I missing?
I know of no Biblical support for annihilation of the human soul, in fact the reverse is true ... repeatedly.
I fully agree that A & E probably had no concept of physical death; after all, it was they who brought physical death into the world. But it was the human body God said would die (until resurrection) while the human soul/spirit of all of us is as immortal as God himself.
No?? My Bibles say otherwise. And I've been through them page by page, including Numbers!
Well, their bodies sure died and will remain so until the resurrection of both lost and saved when body, soul and spirit will be reunited for eternal heaven or hell, each with living bodies. That's not my idea, it's in the Book.
Really? Yes, Jesus truly used non-literal parables to illustrate literal truths but it was his messages that were truth, not the stories themselves. BUT when Jesus gave his disciples a glimpse of what the eternal heaven and eternal hell will be like he was NOT speaking a parable, therefore I believe he meant exactly what he said.
No matter God ever created ever ceases to exist, all matter eventually returns to it's component elements; so, your burned limbs no longer exist as limbs but that's not a meaningful argument to this question. I see no reason to believe branches, or even animals, were made in the spiritual and physical (Jesus) image of eternal God. To take your idea to the logical end would have us all totally extinguished at the first, i.e. physical, death and that just isn't the way the Book says it will be!
Jesus, as the physical "son of man", spiritually died to pay the sin penalty for mankind but not to save us from our own physical death; thus we, like Adam, will die in this first death existence but our souls will never "die".
What Jesus did was experience the "spiritual" second death in our stead so we will never experience the hell of "life" apart from the good things of God and THAT'S the second (living) death hell of it!
When Jesus cried from the cross, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?!" and then, "It is finished" his physical task was done. At THAT moment Lord Jesus fully bought us for a price so we will never have to say "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"!
There is full reason we know those people who reject Jesus in this life condemn themselves (John 3:18) to the second death of conscious existence in some level of eternally abandoned (hellish) physical punishment depending on what was done in life. That's not my idea but I know it's true because Jesus said it. And I sure don't have the gonads to tell him he was mistaken!
Sadly, the lost will have no easy escape by eternal annilation.
We, like ignorant Adam, cannot understand the first death, we cannot fully understand the living second death where physically resurrected lost people have been fairly judged before the Great White Throne to live forever in some proper level of misery.
That's why I first asked how people define death in my first post.
For scriptural info on the eternal living second death see:
Mark 9:44-48
Rom 2:15-16
Rev. 2:11; 20:6-15; 21:8
(Note that there is no suggestion in that for any soul/body to be burned to a crisp and thereby peacefully destroyed in the Lake of Fire.)
I found that the idea of eternal torment of sinners was not taught for the first 500 years of Christendom. I have also looked at every passage of Scripture dealing with the disposition of sinners (with an open mind). I found that there is no proof text that says sinners will be tormented forever. The natural reading of these passages is obliteration.
I looked at the passages you referenced tonight. My comments are as follows.
Mark: The fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, but the sinner is not said to exist forever. The image is that God's judgement cannot be thwarted.
Romans: I am not sure why you suggested the Romans passage.
Rev: Revelations talks of sinners being cast into the lake of fire, but does not say they will exist forever. Satan and others are said to be tormented "forever and ever." However, the length of the torment is only said about Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet, not the human lost. In reality there is no phrase in the Greek that means "forever and ever" as we understand it. The Greek says, "unto the ages of ages" suggesting a long time, but not necessarily eternally.
I could go on and on, but I think I have explained my understanding well enough in this thread. If this topic is something you would like to explore further, I recommend you pick up one of Edward Fudge's books that challenge the modern traditional views of hell. He is an easy read and quite comprehensive (not that there are that many passages to deal with). Fudge is not alone in his conclusions; in other words, he's not a wacko.
You make coherent counter arguments but I think it's all based on human logic rather than what the Word says. Consider this:
Yeah, humanly speaking, it does seem that way but .... is that God's way? I mean to say, "God is love" sounds as if God wouldn't do anything harsh even on the worst of Satanic villains. I've long heard parents of rebellious children say they "love them too much to spank them". So they raise kids that cause others massive harm; that's not "love", real love demands just punishment for deliberate misbehavior; God is love but he is also just.
I believe the idea of all non-saved people spending eternity in the deepest parts of the Lake of Fire on the same level as the worst of humanity and hordes of demons is dead wrong. It would not be just and, if it were true, it would make the sentencing at the Great White Throne a meaningless farce. God IS just and his punishments will be eye-for-eye, ie., equal to the crimes.
I don't know when the concept of eternal hell began. Nor do I know when the concepts of the Trinity, the Rapture, spiritual Baptism, etc. began. Nor do I have any "proof" texts for them but they are all true! Such issues weren't major questions in the early church, they were focused on the bold new idea of salvation by grace thru faith and not works.So I researched the topic.
I found that the idea of eternal torment of sinners was not taught for the first 500 years of Christendom. I have also looked at every passage of Scripture dealing with the disposition of sinners (with an open mind). I found that there is no proof text that says sinners will be tormented forever. The natural reading of these passages is obliteration.
The ONLY sin that puts anyone into hell is disbelief in and submission to Jesus as Lord. And God himself doesn't judge us to see if our (human) good out weighs the bad, God only judges the degree of punishment or reward in our final home. (John 3:18)
It's critically important to know that WE - not He - make our own decision for where we will spend eternity, not many people know that. All mankind have eternal souls from the day of our conception. If we choose to not follow Christ for our eternity, is it wrong for him to allow us our own choice? And then to live with that choice for eternity?
The Prodigal's father loved his son even after rejection BUT that love did the boy no good after he walked away. He only got the rewards of his father's love after he decided for himself to come back. The father's love did not allow him to over rule the rebellious one's choice.
Ditto with the God who loves us; eternal heaven or eternal hell is our choice and we must live with it. We can choose to live with God or Satan for eternity but we cannot rightly say it's unfair or blame God as callous for that; there will be no "easy out" oblivion.
* Ref. Romans 2:15-16, it was supposed to be Rom 2:5-16 but my fumbly fingers struck again. The point was how we pile up sins for ourselves to "earn" our carefully chosen seating area in hell.
Last edited by 1hole; 03-09-2019 at 07:01 PM.
Is his belief invalid if he has no biblical references to support them?
Few to none of us will be saved per the Bible. Everyone of us will reject Jesus by sinning between our last confession and our death. Even deathbed confessions lack a complete accounting of our sins, most sin in ways they do not even recognize. You can't be forgiven for sins you don't understand you are committing. That is why people pray to God asking that they be made aware of their sins. If you are unrepentant and have not tried to reform and make amends then you are not in a state of Grace.
I don't believe this and I believe that while few will be saved and a few will be punished most will just cease to exist. God will save those he feels will be able to serve his purposes in Heaven.
Tim
Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS
The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton
The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides
As a Christian THE authority for faith and conduct is the Bible. So, for me, an opinion without biblical support is invalid.
BTW the ideas you posted about only being forgiven for confessed sins are Roman Catholic and not biblical. You are correct in saying relatively few will be saved. That is a biblical idea.
Well is this Biblical data? Or does this book not count?>>>>If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9
The unexamined life is not worth living....Socrates
Pain, is just weakness leaving the body....USMC
Fast is fine, but accuracy is FINAL!....Wyatt Earp
John's letter is a little tricky when it comes to discussing sin. John pointed out that a Christian lives a life that is not characterized by sin, but he is still a sinner.
Christians are not capable or expected to make an exhaustive itemized list of sins to confess. We confess the big stuff (things we can see) and ask for forgiveness from God and man, but we do an awful lot of sinning on a daily basis that we do not noticed but are still forgiven because we are Christians. We confess we are sinners in general, and trust we are forgiven.
"God, have mercy on me a sinner...this man went home justified" Luke 18:13
My point is that we don't have to specifically confess each sin to be forgiven.
Last edited by Ickisrulz; 05-11-2019 at 09:42 PM.
I have to agree.
The unexamined life is not worth living....Socrates
Pain, is just weakness leaving the body....USMC
Fast is fine, but accuracy is FINAL!....Wyatt Earp
I agree to but like I said, I take the Bible with a grain of salt.
I live in Slidell, you in that area??
Tim
Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS
The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton
The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides
Lived in Covington for 38 years now BR
The unexamined life is not worth living....Socrates
Pain, is just weakness leaving the body....USMC
Fast is fine, but accuracy is FINAL!....Wyatt Earp
Ok, good to know, thanks. Where do you shoot
Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS
The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton
The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides
This is what I know from the Bible.
The human person that is the creation of God has three parts.
1) Your body. The mortal, living, breathing, functioning vessel of you that is physically you, and does work and your will. The part of you that feels physical pain, distress and exhaustion.
2) Your soul. This is the essence of everything that you are, the spiritual part of you that IS the gift of God. The grand accumulation of everything that you have learned, that you are and the personality (good or bad) that you have become in life while you were housed in your body.
This is the part of you that is you, who you are and what you have become. The part that sees, hears and feels, that will live for ever and ever.
3) The spirit. This is what gives your body life. This is another gift of God. This gift of life, the spirit of God was given to you at conception. And is on loan to you for as long as your body lives. When the body dies, the spirit of life returns to God from where it came.
I did not include any scripture reference, because they are easy enough to find just from the causal reading of the Bible.
Last edited by Hickory; 05-20-2019 at 05:56 PM.
Political correctness is a national suicide pact.
I am a sovereign individual, accountable
only to God and my own conscience.
Asking if is "eternal life given only to believers", seems as if the unspoken part is, "If not, is that fair?" If so, the total answer needs to be in two parts.
First, if by eternal life, you mean will live eternity in Heaven, "YES!", only believers in Messiah Jesus.
Second, IF how and who we believe is only a matter of human philosophy then everyone would go to his god's special place which, being no more than a human philosophy, would be no place.
But, if my God is true, then his believers will go to His special place (Heaven) and all others will go to a place devoid of the good things of a rejected God (He77). SO, is that unfair? Maybe ... but I don't think so.
We don't know all of the "What about ...." stuff but we do know that those who DO know about God and reject what they know are making their own eternal choice (John 3:17, 18) so they, not God, are responsible for their own sentence.
Bottom line, Christianity is not a nice social club nor only one of many human philosophies where we can pick and choose what to follow. Fact is, ALL human souls are created immortal so both believers and non-believers are born with "eternal life" but there are only two options for where our eternity will be spent; again, we each make that choice for ourselves. (Not my ideas fellows, it's all in the Book!)
Everyone needs to give that reality a lot of thought because eternity lasts a very looong time and there is no "purgatory" which may offer anyone a second chance to get it right.
Last edited by 1hole; 05-22-2019 at 04:02 PM.
Either my other abode in Covington or Precision on Cloverland
The unexamined life is not worth living....Socrates
Pain, is just weakness leaving the body....USMC
Fast is fine, but accuracy is FINAL!....Wyatt Earp
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