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Thread: case cleaning as lead control

  1. #41
    Boolit Master
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    I have been dealing with my personal lead exposure for almost 50 years now. While it's good to see that the topic is getting aired on this forum, I am a little dismayed by the amount of BS in this thread. Tazman's post is about the only reality I see here. I have had high lead levels from body shop exposure back in the '60's with some additional lead roofing and plumbing exposure. I averaged in the mid 20's through my 20's with a high of 48 at age 40 after two years of indoor bullseye league. That got me a letter from the State of Maine and the EPA, along with a reading list.
    Elemental lead is not particularly hazardous if you do not ingest it. Do not eat it, drink it or breath it. Wash your hands, do not suck your thumb, do not eat or drink while casting, do not smoke, (lead is the least of your worries if you smoke, why make it worse?) Common processes for boolit casting are well below the temp required to put lead in the air you're breathing, (1,200 deg +/-). Try not to leave the pot on without the thermometer in it. I've continued to cast for 20 years after my high reading and I'm back in the single digits today. The way lead typically gets in your system is through the oxides or various "salts" of lead, which are much, much more readily absorbed than elemental lead. Unfortunately lead oxide makes a great white pigment, (to a lessor extent yellow), so it was widely used in paints and glazes until the '60s. It is also easy to work, so it was used in early automotive body work, (my early exposure) And for a long time it was the major component of most solder. That said, people with lead boolits in their bodies do not die of lead poisoning, unless the projectile is in the gut or spinal fluid where it gets dissolved. Your body deals with lead by filtering it from the bloodstream and accumulating it in your bone marrow. Go too far down the bone marrow road and you are in trouble. Unfortunately once you reach the capacity of your bone marrow, there is not much else your body can do for you without some serious help. So, if you are a shooter or caster, lead level testing should be part of your regular physicals as any elevated level is a sign you need to look at your possible exposure sources before you use up your bodies capacity to deal with it.
    The primary risk of exposure for shooters is lead oxide, (dull gray coating that forms on lead when exposed to air), and Lead styphenate which is a major ingredient in ammunition primer compounds. Both of these exposures are very prevalent at indoor ranges. The primer component is in the air you breath anytime someone is shooting and the lead oxide is being formed on all of the tiny particulates that result from boolits fragmenting on the backstops. That stuff gets everywhere. The best advice I can give you is:
    1.Wear a common respirator at the indoor range, and really limit your time there, wash you hands and clothes when you're done.
    2. Wash your range brass in soap and water before processing it further. Lead styphenate is very soluble, (that's why it is so easily absorbed), so it washes off easily. Do not breath the dust from your tumbler.
    3.Don't put your fingers in your mouth while casting, cleaning brass, loading, or shooting.
    Follow those three rules and 99% of shooters will be fine.
    Symptoms of lead exposure are:
    Irritability
    Aches and pains
    Headache
    If you think about it, you will recognize the relationship between your exposure and the symptoms. Act on it when it happens.

  2. #42
    Boolit Grand Master Bazoo's Avatar
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    I have myself checked at least once a year. I was 4 last go round. I am conscience about my eating and drinking during reloading/casting, and washing my hands when done.

    I run my tumbler in the house, but it has a solid lid, and I dont empty it in the house. I take it outside and sift it out. I'd run it on the porch, if I ever get a spot cleared to put it and a cord out there for it.

  3. #43
    Boolit Master


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    BD,
    Shoot me a PM with your mailing address, I will send you a copy of my blood tests.
    I HATE auto-correct

    Happiness is a Warm GUN & more ammo to shoot in it.

    My Experience and My Opinion, are just that, Mine.

    SASS #375 Life

  4. #44
    Boolit Master
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    I have been casting for about 50 years and the only time my lead levels got close to high was when I was using in door ranges.

  5. #45
    DOR RED BEAR's Avatar
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    i had a brother who had lead and zinc poisoning. spent a couple months in hospital he was an industrial painter sand blasting off old paint and repainting chemical plants and industrial sites. i must agree with mdi most is chicken little thinking had a high lead level once after smelting 1000 pounds of scrap lead. stayed away from it for a.month and it went back down. now if it makes you feel better taking all these precautions then go for it. don't let me or anyone else tell you what to do decide for your self. as for me i will keep drinking my coffee and eat the occasional muffin while i reload and cast. as i say only had one high level reading.

  6. #46
    Boolit Master

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    I de-cap using a universal de-capping die in a Lee Turret press which sends the spent primer down a tube into a jug. I then wash the cases in citric acid/dawn wash, rinse and dry. This seems to keep me away from primer dust.
    God Bless, Whisler

  7. #47
    Boolit Master
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    I de-cap with the LEE universal de-capping die. I use the same tool to scrape clean the primer pockets that I used to uniform the primer pockets. The crispy fouling comes off and falls into a garbage bag/bucket like ground pepper. Wet tumble with SS pins I also add TSP (didn’t known it help collect lead) for the extra cleaning powder it provides, along with the dishwashing machine detergent and Lemi-shine.

  8. #48
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by BD View Post
    I am a little dismayed by the amount of BS in this thread.
    Now what was the point of this statement? So is it BS to consider the fact that there is lead in the primer dust? And to take reasonable (not excessive) precautions? Which you then proceed to advocate later in your own post.

    Or is it BS that people take a flippant approach to it?

  9. #49
    Boolit Bub
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    Pour the gunk down the drain, run some fresh water over cleaned brass. Use dawn and lemi shine they come out pretty clean so i wouldnt worry about special soap. I also recommend not using the steel pins unless reloading for precision rifle. They are a hassel and i have found the only difference is the pins will get the primer pockets much cleaner.

  10. #50
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldbrowngun View Post
    Pour the gunk down the drain, run some fresh water over cleaned brass. Use dawn and lemi shine they come out pretty clean so i wouldnt worry about special soap. I also recommend not using the steel pins unless reloading for precision rifle. They are a hassel and i have found the only difference is the pins will get the primer pockets much cleaner.
    That's pretty much what I was getting at. Only I originally suggest TSP or trisodium phosphate soap which isn't all that special. Well it didn't used to so special, now it is a little more difficult to find since they've been trying to eliminate phosphorous from soaps. However, after doing some research (see post #18) , I found that they no longer recommend TSP to control lead dust - they found that pretty much any soap will do.

    But I guess a squirt of dish soap falls into the category of chicken-little, worry-wort, jumping-through-hoops-because-you're-worried-about-lead-dust for some people.

  11. #51
    Boolit Master
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    I use the Lemi-shine and Armorall car wash and wax for general wet cleaning of cartridge cases. I would add some Dawn if I had really greasy cases because that is a good cleaning agent. Not chicken little nor other chicken stuff. It just works.

    I have no worry about the dust from the dry media cleaner because I always run the tumbler outside. Running a dry media cleaner in the house or building is about like setting up a table saw in the living room. Way more dust of any kind than I would want floating around the house. No matter if lead dust or saw dust, I prefer no dust. This is not a big safety issue unless you make it one.

  12. #52
    Boolit Master

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    See post #23. I did something similar. New wrinkle on an old theme. Have the electric DC motor from a treadmill and the front part of the treadmill frame where the DC motor is mounted. Did not change anything where the motor is mounted. Tossed everything else from the treadmill, controls, etc. Made a tumbling drum from 6" PVC pipe with a stop on one end and a step-down to about 4" on the other end. Found a rubber cap for the step-down and use a large hose clamp that is screw tightened. Bought 5 lbs of stainless steel pins for the drum from a vendor on the site here. Of course, you have to have the proper PVC glue for the end cap and the step-down. Whole thing is about 18" long or so. Put two pieces of aluminum baffle to jar the brass around inside the drum. That thing will hold 30 lbs or more of brass. Takes just a half-teaspoon or so of citric acid and a few drops of dish detergent. I use hot water and place the drum on the remnants of the treadmill with the back roller moved to within 6" of the front roller (Used some old pieces of 2"X4" for the framing). Since the motor is DC, I use a heavy duty old Sears battery charger set on high jump-charge and in about one hour or so it will have all the brass clean as a pin, including primer pocket, inside and out. Yes, you have to de-prime every piece of brass before putting it in the drum but it is worth it to have brass that looks like new. Easiest thing I've found so far. Big Boomer

  13. #53
    Boolit Master
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    It's BS that people take such a flippant approach to it, and how they tend to extrapolate their personal test results to the population as a whole. How your body deals with lead in your bloodstream is primarily based on how much exposure you've had through your life from any and all sources. Without a testing, there is no way to know what your risk actually is. My risk is high, as I had childhood exposure to several sources and the capacity of my bone marrow to deal with further contamination is somewhat limited. Someone with little or no prior exposure is likely to have a much lower risk, and likely would recover from short term exposures much more rapidly. If I was going to make a broad generalization, I would say that older people need to be more careful. A childhood in the 1950's and '60's generally included a lot more exposure to lead compounds, salts, oxides and solubles than is the case since then as lead paint, lead based ceramic glazes, lead plumbing solder and lead based fillers were outlawed. But the only way you'll ever know is to be tested. I believe that one test is worth the money for anyone. If you test under 5, great! Use the regular precautions and go on with your life. If you use basic precautions probably no need to ever get tested again, unless you show symptoms. If you test in the teens or above, you need to put some thought into what you're doing and how you can protect yourself a little more, and get some further testing. That's all.

  14. #54
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jaque Janaviac View Post
    That's pretty much what I was getting at. Only I originally suggest TSP or trisodium phosphate soap which isn't all that special. Well it didn't used to so special, now it is a little more difficult to find since they've been trying to eliminate phosphorous from soaps. However, after doing some research (see post #18) , I found that they no longer recommend TSP to control lead dust - they found that pretty much any soap will do.

    But I guess a squirt of dish soap falls into the category of chicken-little, worry-wort, jumping-through-hoops-because-you're-worried-about-lead-dust for some people.
    Its good to be cautious with what we do. I dont think you have to worry about it with the wet tumble the cases come out sparkly clean. The biggest worry is ingestion of lead, so i always try and at least wear surgical gloves in all phases, from cleaning and handling brass to reloading it. And I wash my hands several times during the different processes.

  15. #55
    Boolit Buddy
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    [QUOTE=Black Jaque Janaviac;4540624]Well I found an answer to my question:

    Wonderful, so all is not lost. I know I have read plenty on this subject here, not all, but now I won't have to. And on the bright side, it was totally entertaining also.

    "I will admit I am more scared of the unknown fanny wipers out there that don't wash their hands and touched doors and cooks food out in the herd. That white hat looks mighty low out in the Romaine field., there, something else to worry" HERE ! HERE !

    "I believe we are living in a sterile society with us being "protected" from everything that might, if you remained in contact with the substance 24/7 for 3 years, give you a headache. Much of which is demanded by the "Chicken Little" thinkers and politicians... "

    No wonder I got a head ache
    Good Judgment comes from Experience, Experience comes from Bad Judgment !

  16. #56
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by BD View Post
    It's BS that people take such a flippant approach to it, and how they tend to extrapolate their personal test results to the population as a whole. How your body deals with lead in your bloodstream is primarily based on how much exposure you've had through your life from any and all sources. Without a testing, there is no way to know what your risk actually is. My risk is high, as I had childhood exposure to several sources and the capacity of my bone marrow to deal with further contamination is somewhat limited. Someone with little or no prior exposure is likely to have a much lower risk, and likely would recover from short term exposures much more rapidly. If I was going to make a broad generalization, I would say that older people need to be more careful. A childhood in the 1950's and '60's generally included a lot more exposure to lead compounds, salts, oxides and solubles than is the case since then as lead paint, lead based ceramic glazes, lead plumbing solder and lead based fillers were outlawed. But the only way you'll ever know is to be tested. I believe that one test is worth the money for anyone. If you test under 5, great! Use the regular precautions and go on with your life. If you use basic precautions probably no need to ever get tested again, unless you show symptoms. If you test in the teens or above, you need to put some thought into what you're doing and how you can protect yourself a little more, and get some further testing. That's all.
    Ah. Thank you for the clarification!

    I agree. Lead poisoning is not something to trifle with, but neither does it have to be feared. Maybe the only things I would add to your sage perspective is that - if you change something about how you cast and reload - then you need to re-think how you will keep your process safe. I have been tested before, and it was low. But that was years ago. Do I do everything the same as I did then? No. I know I didn't have a dry tumbler then. So... I'll be asking my Dr. about a lead test. Or I can switch back to wet tumbling.

    And you should take into account the possibility that your situation is different from everyone else so you need to think about how it would affect you.

    For example: A lot of folks say they run their tumble outdoors which is an excellent way to minimize exposure risks - for them. But in my particular situation, my outdoor electric outlet happens to be close to kid's sandbox. So if I blindly did what other people on these forum say they do - it wouldn't work.

  17. #57
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Everyone's situation is unique. Lots the details are different. That is why I only make generalized suggestions about this topic. That said, certain rules seem to apply in the majority of cases.

    The conditions at the factory I worked at were filthy, but they were adequate for preventing lead poisoning provided you followed certain rules. The rules for home handling of lead(smelting, casting, and tumbling) are similar but not precisely the same. A lot depends on your individual situation.
    Without seeing a person's specific circumstances, I can't make specific suggestions. Your mileage can vary significantly.

  18. #58
    Boolit Grand Master

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    After reading all of this and making a few comments, I have a question. Are you guys using tumblers without lids? I wet tumble mostly now days but I still have 2 vibrators that I occasionally use. Both have lids and I have no dust escaping. I've even looked at them in the dark with a flashlight thinking maybe the light would reflect off of the dust. I get a little dust when I empty them into the separater but thats a real minimum. I put a cap full of polish and a cap full of mineral spirits in with the media which seems to cut down on the dust some. I've seen vibrators displayed running without lids to show off the action with the media but I don't recall seeing any sold without lids. Just curious.

  19. #59
    Boolit Master
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    My lyman pumpkin came with a lid, except the lid is also a sieve. I think their idea was that the user could just leave the lid on, turn the whole kit-n-caboodle upside down over a bucket and let the media filter out. It also came with a smaller bowl which had a clear lid that was solid. So if I want to tumble with the larger bowl the sieve-style lid is pretty much useless for dust control.

    Plus when I dry tumble, after filtering the cases and media, the cases look shiny but my hands get dirty handling them.

    Wet tumbling gives me the peace of mind that there is just less lead dust coating the cases.

    I just don't like the dust. Knowing it is likely to have lead in it, knowing that lead is in a form that is to be of concern, knowing my situation, knowing that polished brass is totally unnecessary, knowing that brass can be polished shiny using wet methods, knowing that I've already got a rock tumble on-hand, I've decided to ditch the dry tumbling and switch to wet tumbling.

  20. #60
    Boolit Master
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    I run my tumblers outside without the lids because the dust is not kept in the media. If you prefer to use something to keep the dust in the container, you well soon be tumbling a burnishing compound. I do not need shiny, just clean. Gritty media does not clean. I do not have children in the area, no garden, so my conditions are adequate for me.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check