Paper-patched bullets for BPCR shooting...

[Natural Res Advisors]

I have a basic question: Why were paper-patched bullets ever introduced? Was it to:
Was it to:
1. enhance powder capacity compared to lubed bullets?
2. enhance accuracy?
3. in lieu appropriate lube products availability by shooters?
4. What were the fundamental reason(s) PP bullets were introduced?

Thanks,
Natural Res Advisors (a new member and new to Cast Bullet shooting)

[country gent]

It may have been as simple as a hold over from muzzle loaders that used a patched ball.
A paper patched bullet does increase powder capacity if its a bore riding dia. Groove dia seats as deep as a grease grooved does.
Accuracy was normally slightly better with them until some stated experimenting and designing new grease grooved bullets, then accuracy became about equal.
Most made their own lubes and adjusted to what they needed.

A bore dia PP bullet is only seated into the case around .125-.187 from the case mouth leaving a lot of bullet out of the case. Chambers were cut with the throat starting at the case mouth and sized to the smaller dia. When loaded like this the bullet when chambered is sitting in the barrel and centered by the bore, a very close approximation of the breech seated bullets Target shooters were using in the day.
m

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Based on Sellers book, nearly all of the Sharps cartridges were designed around PP bullets. IMHO, rifle grease groove bullets came about about the same time Sharps went out of business in 1881(?). The PP bullet was more labor intensive than the GG.
PP bullets are generally seated about 1/10" in the case, and a mild taper crimp, if any, is applied.
Paper Patch started before the War of Northern Aggression with Ml. Consistent thickness, and linen base to combat flame cutting.

I have a Shiloh chambered in .45-2.6" (aka .45-100). Seating the bullet to that depth will allow me to charge FL sized (with the expander ball removed) Starline cases with 100gr of Swiss 1 1/2.

Rich

[rfd]

there are advantages with PPB cartridges over greasers, including no OAL or chambering issues since most are built as bore riders and that makes for cartridge chambering reliability in different guns.

[Natural Res Advisors]

Thanks, guys! Those bits of insight/history are very helpful. On average, do you see any significant difference (improvement or underperformance) of PPB compared to GG bullets today?
Clay

[Bent Ramrod]

I don’t have experience with a lot of rifles, but it seems to me that a paper patch boolit of a given caliber, properly loaded and set up, is just a bit more accurate than the corresponding grease-groove boolit at its optimum loading.

But it’s easier to find a grease-groove load of acceptable accuracy, and the rate of fire might be a little higher, given the fouling management. You can spend more time observing “conditions,” and have more leisure to fire when they are at their best. Whether the tiny extra in accuracy in paper patch boolits is worth the extra criticality is up to the shooter. And whether the requirements for this criticality can be maintained through a match so the accuracy advantage is maintained, is also a question.

For instance, most people shoot grease groove boolits at BPCR Silhouette matches, and wipe the bores to prevent “fouling out.” I use a blow tube, and have only “fouled out” with grease grooves on the hottest days out here. What this says to me is that bore wiping for grease grooves can be a lick and a promise and still give enough accuracy to hit the targets. With paper patch boolits, the wiping is critical, and any moisture or fouling left in the barrel will increase the chances of an “out.” So even though it looks like all the shooters are pushing patches through their bores after every shot, the paper patch guys have to ensure that the barrel is clean and dry while the grease groove guys can just be content that they’re keeping the gunk in the barrel down to an acceptable level.

Of course, people like challenges. The guy with the .30-30 who gets bored with shooting a deer every season turns to bow hunting because more hunting skill is needed. It’s easy to get fascinated with paper patch boolits and how they can shoot, once your grease groove loads have proven themselves out.

[one-eyed fat man]

Paper patched bullets let you shoot soft lead, which expands and kills so beautifully, without leading. It also deals well with fouling, as long ago as 1855 the Royal Arsenal in Woolwich in testing paper patch bullets for the P-53 musket reported, " “as many as 150 rounds were frequently fired out of the same barrel” without any fouling or difficulty of loading. Even more remarkably, the rifles were left to sit overnight without any cleaning “in order to make the test severe.” They still loaded and fired “without experiencing the slightest difficulty in loading"

Compare that with an greased Minie. Paper patch bullets in cartridge arms was just a natural progression.

[Nobade]

In my own rifle, patched bullets will significantly outperform grease groove ones in velocity, wind drift, and accuracy. But the wiping routine for them is much more involved, as the bore needs to be clean and dry before every shot. Greasers allow me to just blow tube between shots, so are much faster. So far I'll shoot patched when I want to see tiny groups and GG for silhouette. They're plenty accurate enough and much less picky.

[Distant Thunder]

Nobade,

I doubt blow tubing is faster than using of bore pigs, assuming you are at least a bit organized. I use bore pigs for my PPB in silhouette matches and it is quick and much easier on the shooter. I also use them for Creedmoor matches for the same reasons. With pigs it is just one wipe thru with the rod, load and shoot, repeat. I have added 5 points on average to my silhouette scores shooting paper patch, but I do it because they are so cool. The increased accuracy is just icing on the cake!

[Lead pot]

I use one wet and one dry. For me it's faster than a properly used blow tube. And a lot better when the temp is high and the barrel get hot.

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

That's what I was doing and shooting fairly well in long range matches with my .45-70 Hepburn. Then at the 2017 Creedmoor Cup Match at Lodi I shot pretty well I thought, but Zach Taylor let me in on some things he had learned regarding temperature and humidity and fouling under match conditions. That made it clear to me that I didn't have the fouling under control as well as I thought and that I was often wiping when I should have been shooting. It seems I was playing it a little to close to the line and so very easily and quickly would lose accuracy due to fouling or miss opportunities to run a condition for multiple shots because I was running more than one patch thru the bore.

Then in that same year I made the switch to PP for silhouette and with the help of Brent Danielson I rediscovered the advantages of bore pigs in controlling my fouling and reducing wiping time which is very important in silhouette, but also in Creedmoor. So in 2018 I started using them again for long range shooting. That and probably a few other minor improvements in my match procedure lead to my best year of match shooting in 26 years of BPTR and 14 years of BPCRS.

With what I believe is the superior performance of PPB being brought out by very good fouling management thru the use of bore pigs is the primary reason things went as well for me as they did last year. Shooting at home or elsewhere for fun I still often use 2 wet and 1 dry patch for wiping between shots, but for match shooting there is nothing that beats bore pigs for me. YMMV

[Don McDowell]

I've found with the bore wipers BACO sells, when you have things origiized, quite often you can run that thru the bore with a dry patch behind it, and be ready to load by the time the score keeper/spotter has got your score recorded. Very fast, and very efficient. Plus when the relay is over, run one after the last shot and another one, and about all that is left to do to clean the gun up for the day is wipe the crud from the muzzle, and oil the bore.

[Lead pot]

Jim I never used pigs but often thought putting some together and giving them a try.
I get along pretty well with one wet and a dry. I have run two wet and a dry and the dry with two wet comes out more gray then black but I haven't seen the benefit with the three unless the barrel gets so hot that I smell the hot wood and can't lay my hand on it to get up from the stool after a relay. The creedmoor matches I have more time then I need to get my sighters off and I shoot fairly fast, faster than I should but I want to shoot in the same conditions that I can and if I see the mirage the same I let it go.
The question I will ask you about the pigs. When the barrel gets hot, do the pigs give enough water on those small felt washers to last clear through the hot bore? The reason I ask is, I see steam on my wet patches during a hot sunny day during a long relay and I know you know what I'm talking about hot barrels.
Kurt

[rfd]

i use BACO wipers and wouldn't shoot without them, they're that good. brent's gopher's are prolly as good if not a bunch better - a shooting bud has them and i was impressed, might look into making some for meself. some guys like those texas bore pig wipers. all of these systems are one shot deals and worth investigating for fouling control, saving time on the shooting line, and their consistency at fouling control. i flick off excess plain water, push the wiper just past the chamber, withdraw the delrin rod, put in a dry patch to mop up any water, push it all out and the wiper and patch drop into a jug of plain water to keep the wiper felt moist and bp residue dissolved. shooting on beastly hot days here in the nor'east, with a barrel too hot to touch, i don't flick off excess wiper water, and they push out the muzzle damp. at least for me, bore wiping systems are the way to go for PPB guns, and are just as good (read that: consistent) for greasers as well. ymmv.

[Don McDowell]

Kurt, my 40-90 gets so hot just on the lay down's in a 10 shot silhouette relay, that you do not want to touch the pewter nose cap. The Baco wipers work just fine. I don't know how "speedy" they would be when shooting from a sitting position on a stool, but from prone with the wipers and dry patches laid out right in front of you, it's possible to shoot too fast. Shooting the position match sitting at 300 it's still possible to get thru the 4 sighters and 10 record with ample time left on the clock that a condition could be waited out.

[rfd]

i can only shoot sitting off sticks and for me bore wiper usage during a match is speedy fast enuf - faster than the younger guy next to me blowing the tube for his greasers. it's all laid out for easy access and i use the almost mandatory patch popper.

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

I switched to the felt pellets last year in my .40 for silhouette and .45 for long range and they have worked very well in both. Before the felts I was just putting a wet patch on my brushes for long range and that worked too. I like the felts better because all I have to do is rinse them off in distilled water, put them back in my wiping solution to soak it up and they are ready to go again. With patches I had to pull the dirty patch off the brush and put a clean one on and then soak them in my solution (10% Mobile water soluble oil & distilled water). The pellets are quicker and less messy. They hold up really well and are not expensive.

As far as holding enough solution, they have so far. I put them in a plastic cartridge box felts down and standing in the solution. I fill each well about half way up with my solution before I put the pigs in. They are dripping wet when I lift them out, even the brush is wet. I just shove it into the chamber dripping wet, pick up a dry patch from my popper and set it against the chamber with my left hand while picking up my wiping stick with my right and then push everything through with a slow steady motion. When the pig drops from the muzzle where is a lot of water that falls out with it and the dry patch is still pretty dry and clean. That's because I have a rubber washer on the back end of the brush that acts as a squeegee and pushes most of the crud and water out ahead of the dry patch. The patch probably dries the chamber mostly and picks up whatever little bit of wet the squeegee might miss in the bore. My bore is squeaky clean and dry in one push that takes less than 5 seconds. I can load and look thru my scope when my target comes up. Or in silhouette I'm ready to make a correction and/or shoot again before my spotter has the shot pegged. The only thing that could be faster would be not wiping at all and nothing would leave the bore cleaner and drier.

I learned from Brent not to worry about the pig being too wet, it's just not possible. I believe the rubber washer is key to my system working. I just don't see how I could ever not have enough solution going thru my bore doing it this way. I've come off the line in Creedmoor with the rifle so hot it was uncomfortable to hold on the forend! Like rfd, I would not want to shoot a match without my bore pigs. They really let the superiority of PPB shine!

[rfd]

i load 'em in an ammo box and fill with water prior to a shoot.

[Don McDowell]

I can't use the patch popper with the 45's , as I use a 2 1/2 inch flannel patch to chase the wiper with.
Works well with the 40 and 44's as 2 inch patches work with those. But have mostly went to using a small plastic tub to hold the dry's.
The wipers I keep in one of the plastic kitchen containers that have snap latches on the lid. That keeps them from drying out.

[Distant Thunder]

rfd,

Yep, just like that! The only difference is mine are built around a nylon brush, but the idea is the same. They work!