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Thread: 11.15X58R Werndl from what brass?

  1. #1
    Boolit Man
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    11.15X58R Werndl from what brass?

    I need some brass to fire my Manlicher M-1886 11 mm. It takes 11.15X58R cartridges. does any one have suggestions as to what brass to start with? Thanks for any help.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    450 ne

  3. #3
    Boolit Man
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    17nut, Thank you. please tell me what 450ne is and where to get them. Are they .45-70?

  4. #4
    Boolit Bub
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    I put your title "11.15x58R Werndl" into the advanced search and came up with many pages of fine reading on making brass for your gun. A fun project.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master

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    450 Nitro Express, I believe is what he meant.

    https://www.bing.com/search?q=make+1...APIPA1&PC=APPD
    More "This is what happened when I,,,,," and less "What would happen if I,,,,"

    Last of the original Group Buy Honcho's.

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  6. #6
    Boolit Man
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    Thank you all. Any further suggestions as to what brass to start with are welcome. It seems Starline .50-100 and Possibly Winchester .348 are candidates. Any More forming suggestions? - what dies to use etc. Very welcome. WB

  7. #7
    Boolit Master trails4u's Avatar
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    If it is indeed a Werndl 11.15x58 chamber, it is easily fireformed from .348 Winchester. I did mine in two steps....first a very light load of Unique with a compressed case of, uh....grass seed (No kidding) packed in with paper towels. This blew out the case mouth and started to expand the case body. For the second-step, I loaded a full charge of FFg under a .446 boolit and let if fly. They formed perfectly and no lost cases/split necks out of 20. I did not anneal first, but would have if I had the equipment to do it. They required no trimming or other modifications......just the fireforming, which I'm guessing could be done in one step with COW....particularly if annealed.
    "Do not follow where the path might lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail" Ralph Waldo Emerson

  8. #8
    Boolit Master trails4u's Avatar
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    I don't resize mine.....just clean them after use and hand-seat boolits when loading. I have found that the chamfer at the bottom of a 44mag sizing die will put a nice roll crimp (of sorts) on a finished round. If seating to a groove in the boolit, this gives me some confidence that my rounds will not 'grow' from compression of the powder and light neck tension.
    "Do not follow where the path might lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail" Ralph Waldo Emerson

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    There are people on line forming cases from 50/110 I have shot them in my werndl and do work fine. they do not have the "A" base rim but there not need with the M77 rifle.
    NRA Endowment Member
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  10. #10
    Boolit Man
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    THANK YOU ALL> Great help. Now I will try several approaches , to get the old relic Manlicher M-1886 -- Belching smoke again. WB

  11. #11
    Boolit Master

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    wow my favorite 348 Win is the best,easiest. just as trails4u has described -10gr unique, fill with cream or wheat, rice, grass seed. 1/2 sheet of toilet paper twisted to hold till range time. Must shoot a second time to blow out body. if you cant find 348 you might look on gun broker. I hate to suggest another site, but 348 is worth the cost as it is so easy, also works samo for French Gras.
    let us know how you make out

  12. #12
    Boolit Man
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    Thanks guys. I will look for some .348 brass. I do not have any smokeless powders ( unique). Will fire forming work with Black powder? I can anneal the upper halves of the cases first. WB

  13. #13
    Boolit Master trails4u's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by water bug View Post
    Thanks guys. I will look for some .348 brass. I do not have any smokeless powders ( unique). Will fire forming work with Black powder? I can anneal the upper halves of the cases first. WB

    IF you were able to open up the case mouth enough to accept a boolit somewhere near bore diameter, I think you might get away with just shooting at/near full BP loads. I wouldn't be excited about rattling a .35 bullet down a .45 bore. As far as case forming goes...in this application you're moving a decent amount of brass around, but not as severe as some others. Can't say whether you would split cases or not....I haven't tried it.

    As for smokeless.....you can use other powders than just Unique, although it seems to be by far the most preferred. Probably because a lot of people have it, and the burn rate is appropriate for the task.


    https://www.grafs.com/uploads/techni...df-file/14.pdf

    Check out the burn rate chart above.... Do you have any smokeless powders reasonably near Unique? If not....and given what you'll likely pay for 348Win brass.....might not be a bad investment to pick up a lb of Unique.
    "Do not follow where the path might lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail" Ralph Waldo Emerson

  14. #14
    Boolit Man
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    Trails4u Thanks for the comments. I will get thins together and try things out. WB

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    ascast, when you shoot the round a 2sd. time to finish blowing the case do you use the same load, 10 grains of UNIQUE and rice, grass COW. etc.and a piece of toilet paper to hold every thing in, that is it? done ready to load and shoot a second time to finish fire forming? what is the loading data that you use, smokeless or black? and the DIA. of the boolet and weight. thank, you.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master trails4u's Avatar
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    I'll let ascast respond directly, as you question was directed to him. But for whatever my .02 is worth, when I did my second firing I loaded a full case of FFg and a .446 boolit and let 'er rip. (I'd have to check....I think it's a 385g boolit.) After the first firing with Unique and grass seed, I had the neck diameter to seat the appropriate boolit and only about half of the case left to blow out, so it seemed safe enough to me. It worked.....20 for 20 with no splits or cracks.
    "Do not follow where the path might lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail" Ralph Waldo Emerson

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    trails4u,thanks for the come back. that is the way that I will go! not a problem for getting back to me. we are all here to help each other. again thank's for the information, toot

  18. #18
    Boolit Master

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    ah, as "trails" has done, I use a .446 bullet, or what ever fits in the case neck, and again 10 grains Unique, NO rice or fillers. Also, 10 grains of Unique under any CAST bullet in any reasonable sound gun is OK. That is an old time rule of thumb. Wipe ALL lube off bullet bases. I like the RCBS 43-370 MOLD ( iirc), BULLETS DROP AT .448 ISH ANY ALLOY. sry for caps, not typing it again. I picked up an old Dixie Round ball mold in 446 that I used as I could not recover all my cast bullets, saved a bit of lead, but may require an extra shot because it's light. 348 can be found on GunBroker, and other places. I would try to get new as you never know about the old stuff. May have been in a box in a closet, or maybe sitting on a window ledge for 70 years, getting sunny and cooling off every day. That will cause work hardening. If you get anything old, assume the worst and anneal it. I was able to buy a bunch (1996ish), new and never had a split neck or anything.
    So, now you have cases. I bought a set of LEE 43 Mauser dies, chopped the sizer die in half and polished/ sanded the remaining neck section up in size to suite. I made an expander plug to fit. Some years later I got a set of C&H dies for he Werndl on the auction house. This will be your challenge. --- Groove diameter will be around .452". You will not be able to chamber a bullet that big. So, you might want to do a chamber cast now and make tools and bullets that will work. The 44-77 Sharps won't help much, even though the expander plug ar 446 (iirc) is about spot on, but the body is too thin to get you case up in the die. I'm drifting, will check back in a couple days

  19. #19
    Boolit Master

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    i JUST TOOK A LOOK AT THE c&h 4D SITE dang it Dies for this are $171 off the rack. Extra $30 to match your fired cases. Other options can be had. This assumes a .442 bullet with a 440 expander. I shot as cast 448 in mine, no sizing. I was not filling up the barrel groove space. They all chamber fine. They shot well with about 14 grains of 4759. "Well" means I hit rams at 500 meters more than I missed, with issue sights. If I were to do this all again I think I would go this route. I would send a few fired cases , fired full throttle, pay the extra $30 and have a sizer that fit; and expander. I might also get the interchanging neck dies. I think RCBS offers the same service, but it cost more and is no better.

  20. #20
    Boolit Man
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    One more question. Is 11.15X58R Werndl ( Manlicher M-1886) cases head space measured from the back of the rim or at the necking? If from the neck, I will need to be careful how I neck down the blown out .348 ' s. Thanks, WB

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check