351 WSL from 357 max

[DrDucati]

Haven't found much in the way of methods actually demonstrated. I am also a new lathe user. So, here is my set up:

I machined the aluminum mandrel to match the inside taper of the case. Then I made the little steel fitting to mate the tailstock center on the right to the primer pocket. The traditional center swages the primer pocket more than I'd prefer, so I'll find out if this is better.

[DrDucati]

My project is going pretty well so far.

When I am turning down the cartridge rim, I see that the rim thickens a little... As if some brass is being pushed to the side. Any of you turners can say what causes that and how to avoid it?

[P Flados]

I had to look up the 351 WSL to have a clue.

It looks like 223 brass (cheap) could be used in lieu of 357 max (expensive). A bunch of us are converting 223 brass to a rimless 357 max we call 357AR for the AR-15 platform. Here is a photo of a recent batch:



I have "converted" brass on a number of occasions. When cutting brass, I seem to have good luck with very sharp edges and edges that are a little more "pointy" than I need for steel. I use high speed steel in my little cheap china special lathe.

Back to the brass, if you just have too much 357 max brass laying around with nothing better to do than convert it to something else, just pack it up and ship it to me. I could always use more when feeding my 4 maximums. I might even be willing to send back a small flat rate of 223 brass.

[DrDucati]

LoL! I'm working with a new batch of max. Got the trimming down like it's a breeze. I think my issue in thinning the rim is using the carbide inserts that came with the "cheap Chinese" lathe. The small diameter on brass I think needs high speed steel. For now the hss form tool does the job. Maybe I will get indexable hss inserts. I don't want to skip the process of learning to grind my own blanks, but right now I want to use my limited free time on the brass conversion.

[DrDucati]

BTW, I'm up to my neck in 223 brass. I would like to learn more about your 357AR though.

[Battis]

For my .351 WSL I use .357 mag brass. I reduce the rim with a file (and drill press). No extractor groove. I neck size with a 223 die. For my .35 WSL I use 38 SP brass - reduce the rim, no extractor groove. It works very well.

[DrDucati]

For my .351 WSL I use .357 mag brass. I reduce the rim with a file (and drill press). No extractor groove. I neck size with a 223 die. For my .35 WSL I use 38 SP brass - reduce the rim, no extractor groove. It works very well.

The Winchester self-loaders are fun. I would like to get the set of them.

[P Flados]

For the 357AR, there is a thread on this forum at:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...223-5-56-cases

I have been posting a lot about my custom boolit efforts for this gun at:

https://mdws.forumchitchat.com/post/...pid=1306665551



In my late teens (1978 or so) I had a part time job that involved running a 13" Southbend. We used inserts & carbide tooling a lot and I loved the stuff.

When I got my 7x14 mini lathe last year, I bought a bunch of carbide tooling. It just did not seem to work worth a darn. I think the little lathe flexes too much.

I also bought a 4 piece batch of 8mm x 8mm x 200 HSS blanks. This gave me 8 ends to work with and given the long length I can re-grind an end without thinking twice. The stuff works great. I went looking & found some on Amazon for ~$20 for a batch of 4.

I tried some of the traditional tool grinds, but did not like how the cutting point got closer to the bottom during sharpening. I also found that I like doing most of my cutting left to right. As an engineer, I thought long and hard about the tip and finally came up with one I like a lot. Grinding it first time is real easy and I can sharpen it over and over with out changing the profile.

Here is the my favorite cutting tool in the lathe set up at an angle that cuts (left to right) pretty good most of the time:



Here it the tool looking at the point along the tool centerline:



Here is a side view (out of focus, sorry) looking at the cutting edge:



Here is the back side:



And here is the top view:

[DrDucati]

Very nice!

[P Flados]

For my .351 WSL I use .357 mag brass. I reduce the rim with a file (and drill press). No extractor groove. I neck size with a 223 die. For my .35 WSL I use 38 SP brass - reduce the rim, no extractor groove. It works very well.

Do you still use a 38/357 shell holder?

Part of why I recommended the 223 brass would be the good fit you get when using 223 shell holders.

A big "pain" for some of my other "conversions" where I re-worked rims was getting proper fit in the desired shell holders both on the press and in my hand priming tool.

I will say that trimming 223 brass (or 357max) down is likely to end up with the brass too thick at the case mouth. I have done a bunch of neck turning for some of my conversions. Now this is an area where I still need to work out something better than my past efforts.

[Battis]

I still use the 38/357 shell holder. I take very little off the rim's diameter. The problem is neck sizing. When I use that brass, it's tough to get a good neck grip on the bullet - that's why I neck size with the 223 die. With a good crimp, I can still turn the bullet in the case by hand, but it doesn't pull out, and 22 grs of IMR4227 keeps the bullet from being pushed in. Somehow it works well.

[P Flados]

I went back and looked at the 351 again.

Now I see that is does have a small rim.

From the photo, I had initially thought it was a rimless.

I doubt that a factory chamber would head space properly on the mouth. With a small adjustment to the chamber, a gun could probably be "converted" to allow head spacing on the mouth. Then the gun would probably be happy with brass made from 5.56 / 223. The thicker brass at the mouth from converted 5.56 / 223 may actually help out with holding taper crimped bullets secure.

[richhodg66]

Someone on here uses cut down .223 brass. Seems like some rifles use it well, others don't. The rim would be a bit small, but if your individual rifle's extractor works, go for it.

I personally have only used real .351 brass in mine, but it isn't easy to come by and expensive, plus the rifles are hard on it.

I have thought of making some .351 "short" brass from .357 brass. Seems easy enough and I wouldn't mind loading it light enough to not work the action, just use it as a straight pull on the range. Would also allow for use of the plain based bullet mold I have for it.

The 1907s are capable rifles, more so than is generally believed. I killed two deer with mine using cast a couple of years ago and for woods hunting, they do just fine.

[Battis]

I "misspoke" when I said I use 22 grs of 4227 in the .351 (new spring and buffers). I only use 17 grs, and that works the action perfectly. 17 grs just fits in the .357 case.
In the .35 I use 12 grs 4227. New spring and buffers.
In the .32 I use 11.5 grs 4227. Original spring, new buffers.
In the .401 (Big Ouch) I use 22 grs 4227. Original spring, new buffers.

There are no extractor grooves in any of the cases that I load for these guns. I have two .351s and they both work with the rounds I load.
The problem in using 38/357 brass is that the bullet I use is only .352". Like I said, the crimp keeps it from pulling out, the powder holds it in place. From what I've read, there's no problem compressing IMR4227.

[DrDucati]

I just completed reading Speckin's "Winchester model 07 self-loading caliber 351." It's very reasonably priced; if interested, get it while it is available. I would like to get my hands on Henwood's "The Forgotten Winchesters," but that is like finding a four leaf clover growing on a hen's tooth. I've seen it previously having been sold for $500-700.

I just ordered a model 10 (.401) sold with Redding dies and modern ammo. I'm getting off topic, but I just love these models.

[Battis]

I use 414 Super Magnum brass for my 401. There are no springs available for the .32 or .401 but you can get the buffers. I recommend changing them out. I spoke on the phone with Mr Speckin after I bought his book. It's a good book but his method of changing the springs and buffers on a Self Loader will not work on a 401. There is a better way...

[DrDucati]

I use 414 Super Magnum brass for my 401. There are no springs available for the .32 or .401 but you can get the buffers. I recommend changing them out. I spoke on the phone with Mr Speckin after I bought his book. It's a good book but his method of changing the springs and buffers on a Self Loader will not work on a 401. There is a better way...

You wouldn't happen to be the fella in Vermont would you? Speckin referred to his method.

[DrDucati]

Also, is the same buffer used in all the models?

[Battis]

No, I live in MA, much worse than VT. My method basically involves preloading the bolt with the spring before it's installed in the gun. I used the same buffers in each.

[Battis]

I took these pics at the Buffalo Bill museum in Cody, WY. I used the 2nd pic to determine what size to make the buffers in my gun.