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Thread: How much can they take?

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master


    GregLaROCHE's Avatar
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    How much can they take?

    There is a thread where someone has just bought a Marlin.45-70 and wants to shoot 405grs @ 2000 ft/min.

    I know these guns are a lot stronger than the old trapdoors, but they are not the strongest .45-70s available today.

    How much can they take? Does anyone know of one of these guns being damaged due to excessive pressures? What kind of damage occurs? Are the ones from the 80s the same as the ones manufacturered today?

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy Remmy4477's Avatar
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    Cannot tell you how much they can take.
    I can tell you how much my shoulder cannot take!
    I have a 2001 Marlin CB in 45-70, when I bought it, it came with 300 rounds of custom loaded ammo. 100 rounds of 405 grn lead loaded at 1400fps and 200 rounds of jacketed flat point loaded up to 1600fps.

    Rifles what 7 pounds? After 5 rounds of each my shoulder was very sore for a week, black and blue sore! And that was with a decelorator pad on it.
    Saving whats left for "just in case" scenario.

    Although have shot a few rounds of the 1600fps in a marlin ported guide gun and the recoil was a bit more manageable.

    I cannot imagine shooting a 405 grn at 2000fps out of any levergun, the recoil would kill me!

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    When i got my Marlin in 1978,I did just that.........called the "Elmer Keith" load ,in Gun Digest that year.....about 55gn 4895/405 bullet.......First shot was at a big pig.........flattened the pig,stock whacked my face like being hit with a 4x2.........I think I fired about 4 of the 40 rounds I loaded,took the rest home and pulled them .And I wernt no old man in those days.........I could keep up with the dogs thru the scrub.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master Guesser's Avatar
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    I picked up a really nice Ruger #1 in 45-70 back in 1999, got a really good deal. I loaded up some 500 gr. Lyman 457125 over a modest charge and hurt myself really bad. Scared me. I took it home, cleaned it up and went to work to find a load I could shoot. I settled on a Lee bullet of less than 350 gr. cast from my alloy and fell in love with the little rifle but I was running that light bullet at less than 1300 using Trap Door load data. It was so accurate and easy to shoot that I never felt under gunned.........Sold it in 2015. Now....no worries!!

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master Tatume's Avatar
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    In 2007 I did some testing for a commercial caster using a 458 Win Mag Ruger No. 1. The bullets were 720 grain WFNGC loaded to 1700 fps in Winchester cases. Powders used were IMR 4895, 4198 & 3031. Recoil was severe, but left no scars. In the end, it was decided there was insufficient market for this bullet. I still have 25 bullets, but no plans to shoot them.

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master Tatume's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregLaROCHE View Post
    How much can they take? Does anyone know of one of these guns being damaged due to excessive pressures? What kind of damage occurs? Are the ones from the 80s the same as the ones manufacturered today?
    Marlin 1895 rifles can withstand the 45-70 Lever Action loads listed on the Hodgdon Reloading Center web site.

    http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy





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    I tested some 405gr's at 2000 fps once. The rifle is capable, weakest link is my shoulder! I usually load 405's to 1650-1750 fps and get everything I need to do done there. Actually less would work, however I find that level comfortable for the few shots I do take.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    The internet has lots of pictures of blown up Marlin 1895s. Actually I don't remember seeing pictures of any other type of lever gun that had blown up. I think people really like to hotrod them right up to their limits.

    I have owned quite a few of them and never went much past 1700 fps with a 400-405gr bullet. Even Garrett does not load their .45-70 cartridges as hot as some of the loading manuals recommend. The Ruger #1 is a better way to go for these types of loads.

    Chris.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Here is one of many threads:

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...02-gun-blew-up

    If you google "blown up Marlin 1895" you will find dozens of posts.

    Chris.

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master Tatume's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunlaker View Post
    The Ruger #1 is a better way to go for these types of loads.
    I agree. The Ruger No. 1 is also chambered in 458 Win Mag, 458 Lott, 416 Rigby, and other thumper cartridges. For hunting dangerous game these are better rifles. However, a lot of Marlin 1895 rifles serve as guide rifles in bear country. Here a reliable repeater is needed. Some people like other actions for this application, but the Marlin certainly serves well.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Apples and oranges maybe between perceived thump and actual pressure. From my understanding the 1895/336 receiver will eat 42K PSI ballpark all day long. The .307/.356 ran up at 50-52K and was causing issue with some it appears, many threads have been read about how they are "getting" away with it so? Pressure and bolt thrust are the overlords in this game of containment. Straight wall cases usually will run in the mid to high thirties in PSI where a bottleneck you can zoom right up to 55K with a 5.56 and over 60 with the big dogs. Newtons laws applied and the variables of cartridge configuration are what bruise the shoulder along with the individuals technique and thresholds for thump. A Marlin 30 W.C.F. with a 150/170 is a crack and nothing bad, grab a 450M/45-70 with a hand load and it will make you wonder if you want another squeeze even with 15 to 20% less chamber pressure. The nice thing about the big dogs is that one can run projectiles varying a couple hundred grains at how hard you want it from mild to wild. I am still enjoying my Thumpers!

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    FYI only. None of these are applicable to a Marlin because of OAL and psi.

    62 gr of H4895 under a 400 gr Speer (seated long to the bottom canalure groove) ran 1978 fps at 36,200 psi(M43) out of my Siamese Mauser 45-70 with a 24" barrel.

    The Barnes O SP over 63 gr RL7 runs 2250 fps at 62,700 psi(M43)

    The Lee C457-500-FB over 50 gr H4895 runs 1770 fps at 50,900 psi(M43)
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    I got my 1895 when Marlin reintroduced them in 1972 and worked up to the 53gr of 3031 and a Remington 405gr load that Elmer wrote about in Guns&Ammo. That was enough in that light a rifle with the factory butplate.
    Last edited by LIMPINGJ; 12-29-2018 at 06:04 PM. Reason: Year

  14. #14
    In Remembrance bikerbeans's Avatar
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    If you look at the threaded shank of a Marlin 1895 45-70 barrel i don't think you would want to hot rod it. There isn't much metal between the threads. The barrel is also quiet thin where it is relieved for clearance on the mag tube.

    BB

  15. #15
    Boolit Master

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  16. #16
    Boolit Master

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    I’ve got two 45-70’s, a Marlin CB and a Siamese Mauser. Been shooting them for many years. About 15 years ago I bought a partial box of Hornady 500 grain soft point bullets. Thought I would try them in my Mauser. Loaded up 5 rounds and after shooting two I had to check my fillings in my teeth! Man that was some kind of recoil. I broke down the remaining and still have what’s left in the box.

    I would not try that in my Marlin...
    Shoot Safe,
    Mike

    Retired Telephone Man
    NRA Endowment Member
    Marion Road Gun Club
    ( www.marionroad.com )

  17. #17
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    The reason for the birth of the .450 Marlin. Already stout and won't fit in any other chamber.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Uncle Grinch I have some of those 500gr bullets. I've shot them out of a Ruger #1 using Hornady starting loads of IMR-3031. In my first Ruger #1 they weren't too bad, but that rifle had a limbsaver pad on it. My latest #1 does not and it seems to be a lighter rifle too. The recoil is really nasty.

    Chris.

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy
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    Get a good reloading manual and it will tell you exactly what too much is.

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master



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    Hodgdon is comfortable with 40,000 CUP as are numerous other reloading manuals.

    Garrett is more conservative.

    http://www.garrettcartridges.com/chamberpressure.html

    " There are many opinions regarding prudent pressure limits for the 45-70 lever-gun. They range from those advocating 28,000-cup/28,000-psi load levels, to those advocating 42,000-cup/45,000-psi load levels. It is our view that given the mechanical characteristics of the modern 45-70 lever-gun, and the enormous amount of power that can be achieved within modest chamber pressure levels, the prudent course leads to a point somewhere in between. We have chosen to impose a maximum average chamber pressure limit for our 45-70 Hammerhead Ammo of 33,000-cup/35,000-psi. It is often claimed that the Marlin 1895 is completely safe with load levels up to 43,000-PSI, and that the modern Winchester 1886 is safe to 50,000-psi. This analysis is based on the strength of the respective lockups. We do not take exception with these claims. "

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check