How much can they take?

[Hickory]

Lots of folks go through the stage of how hot can you make a given cal. by starting with a max . load and work up.
Most of us out grow or survive it. When I read these postings, or get seduced by the Dark Side and be tempted to do it myself:
I remember someone advising, "If you want .300 WinMag performance, buy one. Don't try and make your own out of a .308".

Amen, amen and amen.

[Tom W.]

That isn't always so. I have two rifles that I had rechambered time A.I. calibers. Not because I wanted more power, as I already had that covered, but because I wanted them. According to my records I don't load " official" a.i. loads in either one, but I enjoy having them.

The shooting, casting, and hand loading sport we all share is for our individual enjoyment. I ain't gonna load up something because someone on the forum says what I load is a wimpy load or should be faster or slower or with a heavier, lighter, lead, copper, vld or whatever. I do to please myself. I like the cloverleaf groups 2" high @ 100 yards with my 30-06 a.i., or the tiny groups @ 50 yards with fire forming loads with my 30/30 a.i. We really need to enjoy our sport and be helpful if someone asks, but not deride or belittle someone if their opinion is different.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Well wrote Tom !

[richhodg66]

There seems to be something about the .45-70, particularly in the Marlin lever guns, which seems to attract the kind of morons who just have to push the envelope and usually have no idea what they're doing. It's one thing to be an experienced handloader and attempt such things, but I joined a facebook group on the .45-70 and had to leave it after the umpteenth ******* made his first post of "tell me what your hottest load with bullet xyz is". Just couldn't handle the stupidity anymore. There are also handloaders out there who clearly don't understand what is going on regarding interior ballistics and won't listen.

My experience with the .45-70 is not vast, but I only load well within Trapdoor levels, and the one deer I killed in woods conditions using a 330 grain bullet and 30 grains of 5744 (wimpy even by trapdoor standards) went down in two steps after having the bullet go all the way through nearly lengthwise. I'll keep loading to save wear on the gun and me, if I need to step up, I'll reach for the .458.

[FergusonTO35]

Lots of folks go through the stage of how hot can you make a given cal. by starting with a max . load and work up.
Most of us out grow or survive it. When I read these postings, or get seduced by the Dark Side and be tempted to do it myself:
I remember someone advising, "If you want .300 WinMag performance, buy one. Don't try and make your own out of a .308".

Lots of folks are trying to turn the 6.5 Creedmoor into a .264 Winchester Mag. Since they are using strong modern bolt actions I suppose the danger isn't nearly as great as putting a Ruger only .45-70 load into a Trapdoor, but still it can't be good for barrel life or getting many reloads out of your brass. My 6.5 is a joy to shoot at 2400 fps and will do anything I could ever try to do with it.

[Potsy]

The question that keeps lingering in my mind is what are folks trying to accomplish by loading the .45-70 to capacity in a Marlin Levergun? Not that 40KPSI loads are a waste of time. Not at all. It just seems that there's a couple different reasons for doing so.

Are you trying to make it shoot flatter? 325 grain pointy Hornady FTX's at 2000fps plus would be an example. Coupled with a good Mil/Mil optic to take advantage of increased aerodynamics and speed would take the concept even further.

Hit harder? Greater shock? 400 grain softs at 1900fps would do. Penetrate deeper and hit harder? 400 grain plus LBT's at the aforementioned 1900fps should lengthwise anything walking in the lower 48.

No doubt such loads are rough at the buttplate. I'd not fret loading 400 grainers to 18-1900fps with the appropriate powder out of a Marlin anymore than I fret loading 100 grainers to 3200fps out of a .25-06. But I do tend to take purpose, game, and bullet construction vs. velocity all into account and ask myself what I'm trying to accomplish whenever I work up a handload for anything, including the .45-70.

[Hickory]

All of this dangerous effort to get,... what? More velocity, power just to kill what, a punny little deer?
Buy a 460 Weatherby (sp) or a mean mule if you like getting kicked around.

[M-Tecs]

Dangerous effort???????????? This is straight from Hodgdon's Safety Bulletin.

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/u...fle-pistol.pdf

45 Colt: 45 Colt data is listed in two categories. The first is intended for original Colt revolvers and their replicas. Max pressure, is 14,000 CUP. The second category is 45 Colt (Ruger Blackhawk, Freedom Arms and Thompson/Center Contender/Encore handguns. Max pressure, 30,000 CUP. Do not use these data in any other make or model of firearm.

45-70 Government data usage: 45-70 data is listed in the following three divisions based on pressure levels for only the firearms intended:

45-70 Government (Trapdoor Rifle): These data are intended for Springfield “Trapdoor”, Rolling Block and Antique Replicas. Max pressure, 28,000 CUP. At 28,000 CUP and PSI are the same.

45-70 Government (Lever Action): These data are intended for the 1895 lever action Marlin, ONLY. Max pressure, 40,000 CUP. Do not use these data in any of the firearms listed in the Trapdoor section. That is apx. 43,000 PSI

45-70 Government (Modern Rifles): These data are only for Ruger No. 1 and No. 3 single-shot rifles, Browning 1885 single-shots and Siamese bolt-action rifles. Max pressure, 50,000 CUP. Do not use these data in either of the prior two sections of 45-70 data (Trapdoor and Lever Actions).

[Harter66]

High velocity to flatten trajectory ......... No high BC to flatten trajectory .
The Hornady and Barnes 300-350 gr bullets gain nothing for their shape with BCs of .18-19 . Yes you can run them hard but not really any harder than than a GC cast with the same BC . The only way to beat gravity are by getting there faster and the only way to get there faster is to beat the wind resistance and keep the velocity longer/futher .

You don't get a done tender steak quickly by just turning up the heat and you don't get a flatter flight by just pushing harder . Grab your Speer manual look in the back compare .38 BC at 1200 fps to .18 at 2000 fps . I haven't looked but I'm willing to bet at 300 yd the faster bullet doesn't have much of an edge left in energy , velocity or trajectory . Recoil is likely awfully close too .

[GregLaROCHE]

400 grains @ 2000 fps using Vihtavuori N130 or N133 has been safe and reasonable in my modern Marlin 1895's for twenty years. Many thousands of rounds, both hotter and milder. We also have CIP proof firing here for every firearm sold.

This doesn't mean that 2000 fps is safe with your powder or load or Marlin. But modern Marlins don't need to be limited to trapdoor pressures,unless one wants to. My moose load was a Speer 400 @ 2150 fps for many years, I then cut down to Hornady 350 at the same velocity. Now my new SBL takes recoil even better than my previous Marlin.


Everyone be safe out there. Things like Quick Load can be helpful, we all load differently,every firearm is different.

How much N130 are you using with 400 gr boolit for 2000 ft/sc?
Thanks

[JFE]

If you want the strongest lever action in 45/70 get an 1886 clone. The problem with the Marlin is that Marlin engineers shoehorned the 45/70 in what is essentially an action designed for the 30/30 class of cartridges. In order to do this there is very little steel left in the receiver between the bottom of the chamber and the top of the magazine opening. This is where Marlins tend to come apart.

There are other issues. The load port and ejection port have been opened up, weakening that side of the receiver. Another problem cited is the expanded mag tube to allow the cartridge to feed through the magazine. Under certain circumstances the cartridge is believed to have greater movement allowing the sharp edge of hard cast bullets to rest against the primer of the cartridge in front. One custom cartridge manufacturer thought this was such a liability that they have 45/70 cases made with a small rifle primer to reduce the risk.

Having said all that, used sensibly an 1895 Marlin in 45/70 is perfectly fine. I have had one since 1974 and still use fairly hefty loads (420 gr at 1850 fps). The receiver itself is still tight but the parts that secure magazine to the barrel have had to be repaired.

The rifle can take loads developing 2000 fps with a 400 gr pill but the recoil is quite savage in a 7lb rifle. Drop velocity to 1850 fps and recoil reduces significantly and pressures are around 30K. That extra 10K of pressure only yields an extra 100-150fps. If that difference is important to you you're better off using a larger rifle.

With the right cast bullet design you can load some 1886 clones to 45/90 length without altering the chamber. This extra length and greater receiver strength allows you increase the performance. If you want more power and happy to use open sights, one of the 1886 clones is great option. I also have a Browning 1886 but I still reach for the Marlin more often. It's lighter and fits me perfectly.

[35remington]

Said by a guy that has done some experimenting with the 336 action, which is also the 45-70 action, in a methodical way:

Take your selected load of 1800 or 1900 whatevers and go to the range. Take two cases with you and load your selected load repeatedly, noting case growth per shot. This will tell you much about the load being placed upon the rifle and its suitability for long term use. If you are seeing a lot of case growth per shot, that ain’t good. Back things down.

The hottest Marlin cartridges in the MX series were supposedly factory loaded to the 47,000 psi vicinity, and no more, in skinnier cartridges than the 45-70, which implies the 45-70 should be well below that. Quite frankly I would rather stay below 35,000 in such a large diameter cartridge.

The area occupied by the locking lug, if that is the correct term, in the bolt notch at the rear of the bolt is not particularly large. I cannot see subjecting parts that have some slack in them when engaged to heavy pressures and hard slamming. Overloading a Marlin 45-70 will at some point make the rifle start to say uncle and your cases will start hollering for your attention.

Take notice of things if and when that starts occurring and back down until it no longer occurs. If you want to know you have to put in the effort. Take the time to pay attention and quantify what is occurring. Things are proceeding well when not much is going on.

I suspect that to be true of a lot of things, but most particularly here.

[gundownunder]

Lee's second edition maxes out the 405 gr load at about 1800 fps in the 95 Marlin
I don't think I'd want to be at either end when the hammer falls.
I shot a friends 350 gr at 1650 and that was enough for my geriatric shoulder.
I don't know about your side of the pond but over here the used gun racks have a steady supply of 45-70 rifles that have shot less than one box of ammo.
I guess if you're compensating for something you need the brass ones to back it up

[Tom W.]

Oh to be young and "adventuresome" again, willing to shoot anything that was safe and didn't have to be tied to a log as you hid behind the tree and pulled the string......

[CLAYPOOL]

Whats wrong with the talk about 10 Gr's. or so of Unique and 405 gr. bullet or a collar button or some such.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=gundownunder;4542761]Lee's second edition maxes out the 405 gr load at about 1800 fps in the 95 Marlin
I don't think I'd want to be at either end when the hammer falls.
I shot a friends 350 gr at 1650 and that was enough for my geriatric shoulder.
I don't know about your side of the pond but over here the used gun racks have a steady supply of 45-70 rifles that have shot less than one box of ammo.

You noticed too! Dont see many long barreled rifles amongst them tho.

[robg]

if you want 458win mag performance buy a 458win mag.

[beagle]

I have owned a Number 1 Ruger and then bought a M1895 Marlin years back. Now, the Marlin still resides and the Number 1 is gone because the Marlin would outshoot it.
Both the .45/70 and .38/55 acquired their reputation as big game killers with BP velocities on the shy side of 1500 FPS. 1338 FPS for the old .45/70 load as I recall. I normally keep mine on the shy side of 1500 FPS and they are accurate and I enjoy shooting them.
But, this is nothing new. Back in it's military days, the standard load was a hefty one and fired in the heavy trapdoor Springfield rifle...and it kicked. Look up the Sandy Hook Tests of the .45/70 at ranges over a mile. The Calvary had their trapdoor carbines and even those rough riding gents eventually got carbine loads for the lighter rifles although there is no official evidence remaining.

IMO, there is no reason to use a 105mm howitzer to kill a deer, elk or bear. If you want that performance, get a 105mm howitzer and don't try and push the .45/70 into that category and injure yourself, a bystander and a good rifle. Many tragedies have started with the words, "Now, watch this!"/beagle