How do you manage?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Thanks for the kind words. Coming from an accomplished "smith" like yourself, it's high praise. I had no real idea on how to make a stubbed gun until I read your very comprehensive thread on the subject. Frankly, I'd never even heard of them. Yes, definitely a lot of Krags, most of which I'll never shoot again. But, I got a whale of an education about them.
DG

[uscra112]

'Nother little tidbit about the Krag. In the early 'teens the Army banned them from military marksmanship competitions, because well-tuned Krags were outshooting the Springfields.

This a my .22 Lovell Krag. Magazine cut away, .22 Armory barrel rechambered, made-from-scratch stock. Scope is unmarked, but the mounts scream Stith. Chamber is very tight, as was the fad in the late '30s. I had to make up a special set of brass for it. Wish I could say that I have a 1 MOA load for it, but not yet. The magazine well handily catches ejected brass, which is kinda neat. Second pic is a set trigger arrangement, allegedly designed by Hervey Lovell himself.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Neat! Thanks for showing us your Lovell. Very educational, how the trigger system is designed.

I had never heard that, about the Krags outshooting the Springfield '03s, but think it quite possible.

[Texas by God]

I think they outclass the Springfield. There I said it. Mine shot wonderfully and I miss it.

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[Multigunner]

The Krags were disqualified from one competition (Palma?) because they were using non standard matchgrade ammunition when only standard milspec ammo was allowed. I think they had special matchgrade barrels as well. In full military trim the 1903 was a bit more accurate.

Some military match shooters had the locking lug lapped till the safety lug bore on the receiver turning it into a two lug action. This was said to improve accuracy quiet a bit.

There's a book available at the Internet Archive with quite a bit of information on preparing a Krag for competition, including a simple reversible method of sweetening the trigger.
I'll see if I can find a link for it.

BTW
FN built many Mausers in .30-06 with a scallop cut in the upper receiver ring to allow clip loading of the longer cartridges.
Besides the Infantry short rifles they built many shorter barreled police carbines. I think some went to Morocco among other places.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

The scalloped receiver rings were sometimes done after-market. I have 2 Peruvian Mausers that were originally chambered in 7.65mm. In WW II it was determined that those Central and South American countries allied with the Allies would only be responsible for the security of their own countries, and the U.S. offered to supply them with all the .30-06 ammo they could use. So the conversion was made to allow the longer cartridges to enter the receivers in those countries accepting the offer. They are often stamped ".30" on the receiver ring, or on the barrel just forward of the receiver ring. A small problem exists, however, in that they didn't usually re-barrel the rifles to .308, and left them at .311. If you're a reloader you can load the -06 cases with .311 bullets and get some very nice results. Brazil, the one exception, actually sent a battalion of soldiers to fight in Italy, and they were completely outfitted with U.S. weapons.

[Bigslug]

Sporterized guns are a case-by-case thing.

Chopping an original military gun NOW is something of a stoning offense, but in the context of the 1920's through the 1950's, there were so many millions of them lying around that nobody thought there would ever be a shortage. I look at such things as snapshots in time that reflect the lifestyles and economics of the period, and get a kick out of the old peeps and scopes that often come attached to them.

The other thing I consider is that these are beefy, burly, mil-spec actions designed to take the worst an illiterate conscript could dish out. . .as opposed to the current Wal Mart specials that are mostly plastic, aluminum, or stamped sheet metal held together with roll pins, combo'd up with a scope that might as well be a chunk of garden PVC with a marble glued in each end. 1917 Enfield vs. Remington 710 - which do YOU think will wear out first?

So while the collector in me sometimes cringes at the Bubba jobs, if the bores and mechanics are good, there's deals to be had.

[eric123]

My weakness is sporterized 03 Springfields...I've bought 3 over the years, all cheap, all shot great. My latest purchase was a 1930 '03 with a Redfield base and forged bolt. Paid $220 for it. I put it in a rough Greek stock and put a K4 Weaver on it. I have about $350 into my faux'ish sniper...

[richhodg66]

"The other thing I consider is that these are beefy, burly, mil-spec actions designed to take the worst an illiterate conscript could dish out. . .as opposed to the current Wal Mart specials that are mostly plastic, aluminum, or stamped sheet metal held together with roll pins, combo'd up with a scope that might as well be a chunk of garden PVC with a marble glued in each end. 1917 Enfield vs. Remington 710 - which do YOU think will wear out first?"

This is a very valid point. Those actions were designed for combat and all that those kind of situations could dish out. Hard to imagine a hunting situation that could ever cause a problem for one of them.

[uscra112]

My weakness is sporterized 03 Springfields...I've bought 3 over the years, all cheap, all shot great. My latest purchase was a 1930 '03 with a Redfield base and forged bolt. Paid $220 for it. I put it in a rough Greek stock and put a K4 Weaver on it. I have about $350 into my faux'ish sniper...

Lotta good use left in those old steel K-Weavers! My 03-A3 has one, so does the 1917 Enfield sporter, both my 336 Marlins, a 340 Savage, maybe more. Bought 'em all for ~ $75 each at gun shows, they'll last another generation at least.

[frkelly74]

I went down to Baers Sporting goods in St Charles this morning to see if the Remington 03A3 that they had before deer season was still there. It was not, so I was spared the temptation.

[dogmower]

How do you guys deal with finding guns reduced to shabby straits? A secret desire to strangle anyone who sporterizes a milsurp.

[Peregrine]

[uscra112]

How do you guys deal with finding guns reduced to shabby straits? A secret desire to strangle anyone who sporterizes a milsurp.

I have no problem at all.

What DOES bother me is the arrogance of individuals who insult sporterized milsurps.

[Bent Ramrod]

I’m old enough to remember when the “originals” were sticking out of 55-gallon drums at the surplus stores, coated with grease, dirt and who knows what else. Your choice, 15-20 bucks. Par with or only slightly more than a name-brand single-shot bolt action .22. A Marlin lever-action .22 went for $40 at the time, IIR; a lot of silver money. At that time, $5-$10 would set you up for a weekend of dining, dancing and movies, with the necessary cruising in between, and $20 would fill at least four grocery bags to the point of splitting. And not beans and rice, either; real First World food, USDA Choice.

One day I went into the local K-Mart, which had a sale on .22 LR, two boxes for a dollar, and saw a rack full of US Krag rifles, $12.50 each. Even at that time, I thought that was an unusually good deal, if you liked Krags, but I had neither $12.50 nor any particular interest in Krags.

And, of course, Ye Olde Hunter was selling some of the surplus rifles by the pound or by the inch length. There were Collectors of such stuff around, but that was pure, raw Collecting Impulse, because they were able to amass a bunch of prime examples for relatively cheap. These Collections rarely were written up in the gun magazines of the time (who cared?), although overviews of the individual models would get an occasional article. The only expensive battle rifles I recall were Garands, typically going for $59.95. The military pistols were being “studied” and written about much more frequently and in more detail, and the interesting ones were starting to get pricey. Mauser Broomhandles, of the routine sort, were $39.95, and thanks to such articles, the sellers were starting to separate the Rare Variations in order to sell them for more.

The rest of the market for such rifles back then were the people who wanted a cheap deer gun for once a year, and those who wanted to see if they had the Gunsmithing Gene and needed something affordable to practice on. More power to them; a lot of good gunsmiths eventually emerged from these practice sessions, and half the reason that the originals are so prized now is because of so many of them were removed from circulation in this way. The Japanese and Italian rifles were generally classed as not worth the effort of converting to sporters, and as a result were the last of the battle rifles to start going up in price. Even in the early Nineties, you could see a lot of them going begging for $25-$40 or so.

The other half of the reason for the price increase is that the milsurp rifle collectors started writing books about them. If you want to amp the value of your collection, whatever it is, write a book about it, point up the “rare variations,” and pull a “Price Guide” out of the ionosphere and put it in the back. It’s like starting a rumor on the Stock Market; visit to a Gun Show six months after publication will show “movement,” i.e., price increases on all the examples of the stuff you’ve written up.

And, of course, as Elmer Keith once said, “Money doesn’t seem to be any easier to get now than it used to be, but it sure buys less now.” If I want something, I grit my teeth, stack the necessary quantity of shin-plasters on the seller’s table, and grab it. Those pieces of paper will be worth less tomorrow, for certain, no matter what the article will cost.

[Baltimoreed]

Attachment 233533Attachment 233532Attachment 233531I’ve gone both ways with project milsurp rifles. The first was a wannabe Krag NRA sporter that wasn’t. I shortened the already shortened bbl, put it in a sporter stock, added a Kraghaus scope mount and a Nikon IER scope and now it’s a handy .30-40 Scout rifle. The other was an .03 Springfield that bubba had sporterized. The rcvr was unmolested but the 21 inch bbl had extra holes. I refinished a scant stock, shortened it proportionately, milled grasping grooves, slicked up the action, refaced the muzzle and now its back in uniform again. Also a good shooter. You’ve got to be flexible in this milsurp hobby.

[Hardcast416taylor]

It doesn`t matter how much money you put into making a sporter from a mil-surp when you take it to a gun shop they only look at the current value of that mil-surp unaltered to offer you. I remember way back when that high school kids brought mil-surps to metal shop class to hack them up into sporters. Most notably were #5 Lee Enfield `Jungle Carbines` having the flash supressor cut off and the 10 round magazine cut in half for a 5 shot variety and welded up.Robert

[KenT7021]

I've built quite a few sporters on military rifles over the years starting in the late 50's.I don't do it anymore but I don't regret doing it.One of my wind falls was when the DP P14's were imported from India.Most of those rifles were used very little before being DP'd.The bores were like new except for the pin run thru the chamber.I actually rebarreled a broomhandle with the front end of a P14 barrel.It worked fine.The actions were used to build magnum caliber rifles.Lots of work required on the receiver rails but doable.I never make bubba comments or respond to threads complaining about them.When I was young you could buy surplus rifles in barber shops.Missouri was opening deer hunting statewide at the time and most of rifles used were cut down military rifles.

[Texas by God]

Those DP P14's were a steal. I sportered one into a .450 Marlin and it was a tad weighty but that was a good thing for factory level loads. I never sporterized a collector piece that I know of. I wouldn't do a milsurp now but if someone had already started it......

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[Drm50]

When I was a kid I whacked more Milsurps into Sporters than you can shake a stick at. I only did 03s and 98s.
They were cheap and a lot of people would buy one and start cutting it down and loose interest. These could be
bought for 1/2 of nothing. I liked Krags but never did one from scratch. Never wasted my time on Brits, Jap,
Carcano or Mosins. Always considered that as putting a top hat on a pig. Inexpensive stocks were available back
then 90% finished, the magazines were full of them. Later on up in late 60s I bought many really nice Sporters
that weren't basement jobs. They still are a good deal, many better that a new off the rack factory job. We never
thought these rifles would increase in value as much as they have. My dad was the town electrician and a WW2 Vet himself. He converted many war trophy rifles into floor lamps during the 50s. I wish I had one of those just
for sentimental purposes. It's guys like me that chopped them up that made original ones worth the price they
are getting.