What is gunsmithing

[RED BEAR]

i just couldn't believe my local gunsmith couldn't do a barrel swap.if i need a parts changer i do it myself. you would be surprised at just what can be made by hand. the first 6 years of my machinist career i mainly made parts by hand they found out i had a nack for it so i got most all the hand work. and now i am retired and no longer have access to machinery it has come in handy keeping my old guns working.

[uscra112]

It wasn't THAT long ago that there were no milling machines. You forged a part to as near net shape as you could, and then used files.

In the last couple of years I've made Stevens and Ballards extractors with nothing but a hacksaw and files. OK, and a bench vise. Harry Pope is said to have been an absolute master in the use of files.

I'm told that in England apprentices were not advanced past filing for a year. Final test was....you were given a small block of steel, and had to file it to a perfect cube of some given dimension.

[JeepHammer]

This is a disposable society, we throw away people, firearms are no different.

I have three tables at the shop, the 'Rush Order, increased price', the 'Paying Full Price' & the 'Discount', but when I get around to it'.

I have to tell people all the time it will take 30 to 60 days, by the time you get done screwing around with parts suppliers (about 1/3 of the time it's no joy) and then making what ever part they need it's a PITA...

Then my 'Competition', guys installing sights that don't have proper taps, using hand drill and don't even have a tapping table...
I'm supposed to fix what they screwed up, and do it IMMEDIATELY, and do it for free, because the customer is POed at the first guy!

Here is a hint, when the 'Gunsmith' drills all the way through the barrel and has a screw sticking into the chamber, there isn't much I can do for you!
It won't chamber a round, and you shouldn't ever try to chamber a round since the chamber is compromised...
That's not what they want to hear, and I get called every name in the book.

I refitted loose barrels on an old double shotgun, made a fore end spring from scratch, tightened up the barrel on the pivot pin, (great old double or I would have told the guy to scrap it),
And the customer blew a fuse when I asked $200 for two solid days of work on his family heirloom... I was seriously throwing him a break since he was saving a great old double.
He says the guy 'Down the street' only wanted $35 (that guy pushes boards through a saw for his day job).

Another one was the guy that wanted a 20 MOA mount on his bolt rifle action, but the holes in the receiver were too small for the screws that came with the mount...
So he takes it to the 'Gunsmith' which breaks a tap off in the hole, and captures the BOLT!
The idiot never took the bolt out and bottomed the tap against the bolt, then apparently tried to DRILL A TAP OUT carving up the receiver.

I get a rifle that's gouged up, the bolt is pinned in the receiver with a hardened tap end, and the guy wants it back, ready to run that afternoon!

I felt like telling him to shove it up the butt of the guy that screwed it up,
But what I did was park his butt on a stool, made him WATCH me set up for EDM and burn out the tap,
Then PROPERLY set the receiver up on vertical axis and re-drill the hole, drill/tap the rest of the holes, fit the screws so they didn't pin or gouge the bolt, etc.
I also explained what each piece of equipment cost, how much it takes to operate the shop on a daily basis...
He was mad as a hornet at first, but when it came time to pay up, no arguments.
He's been back a few times and he's always polite (brings friends/work from time to time)...

------

I like it when the old timers sit around and BS, have coffee, etc.
I catch **** about them 'Loitering', but they have several lifetimes of experience and have great ideas & stories.
One of them had 40 years of experience in a fine furniture factory and can fix/repair/refinish ANY stock damage, an absloute master at his craft, and he can find wood to match ANY stock that comes through the door, knows every logger & saw mill in 500 miles...
I suck at stocks/wood, so he's a real treasure, and he knows M1 Garands like no one I've ever met.

Another guy was a factory 'Maintinance' man for about a half century, and can forge/heat treat ANY spring.
I've learned more about forging & heat treating on the fly from him that any class I ever took.
Makes the BEST hand forged knives you have ever seen...

------

The problem I see is there isn't an apprentice program anymore, people do 'Schools', some over the internet or by mail, and that's just NOT the hands on experience they need...
With an apprentice the journeyman will show/tell the apprentice about 40 different issues about like the one they are working on, cover all the vairables, safety procedures, and you can't get the smell, feel the heat, know what the resistance is over the internet or from a book...

And let's not forget the 'YouTube' generation, learning from someone that's got no education and is screwing up in the first place! When the conversation starts with 'I saw this guy on YouTube do this...' I'm usually out right there... It's not like someone with a proper education & 30 years experience is going to kill his business by posting his secrets on YouTube (even if he knew how, they won't exactly be the social media generation!).

--------

I'm SURE I'm missing out on easy money, but my rule is NO PLASTIC GUNS.
When some neck beard, man bun, YouTube 'Operator' brings in the 'Latest-Greatest' fad gun and wants something he saw on YouTube or read about in some 'Tactical' magazine, I just smile and say 'No'.

Wearing 'Tacti-Cool' cloths and buying the 'Latest' plastic gun doesn't make you an 'Operator' (16 years in the Marines, I know a dangerous man when I see one),
And I already know when the latest gadget or modification doesn't make him a better shooter, he's going to throw a tantrum and blame me for his inability to hit anything...

The second reason is, if the factory couldn't design a firearm that cycles or hits anything, what makes you believe I can magically wave a torque wrench over it and it never fails or misses again?
So much of the plastic **** won't function, and with the super short barrels/sight radius and sloppy slides/barrel lockup it's never going to be accurate, nothing I can do about that...
You paid $400 for melted Legos, face facts!

OK, rant over...
Resume normal operations!

[indian joe]

I have been thinking about this question for a while - what did the old people say ? cant be all things to all people - (somethin like that anyway) -we are livin in the era of the specialist (some here are old enough to have read "The Specialist" by Chick Sale) -------anyway
We have a good gunsmith in our local town - if you want a tackhole bolt gun setup he is the dude to do it - Shoots em good too - fly shoot - 1000yard centrefire - however I would not take my lever gun to him - its not his area of expertise and I am kinda handy working lever guns myself anyway - part of the reason its not his area of expertise is that most of the blokes that shoot lever guns round here would not pay a decent rate for his level of work - and keeping a shop open means you go for the work that pays - that has been talked about already - so we have the specialist - and then a bunch of backyarders filling in the gaps ,

[John Taylor]

I think JeepHammer has some good points. Just got a revolver in yesterday with 6 bullets stuck in the barrel. I have had a Colt Bisley with 7 and a S&W with 10 but the most has been a Ruger 44 carbine with 16or17, hard to count with them all jammed up. There would have been more but the gas port clogged and the action would not cycle again. I have had rifles come in with the scope base holes not lined up. Get to plug the hole and re-drill. A while back I installed a brake on a 300 Win Mag and the owner used one of those laser sighters but forgot to remove it, brake was shredded and the last two inches of the barrel was in bad shape. And he was planning on going hunting the next day. Maybe gunsmith should get together and write a book. Might be a few people that would buy every copy.

[egg250]

I'm enjoying this thread, just hope it doesn't turn into a gripefest about the worst gunsmith.

Anyway, I'm certainly not a master gunsmith. I rank myself somewhere in the journeyman area. I prefer to buy ready made parts to fit and install because that actually saves my customers money. I have made parts that were unavailable but that is much more expensive. Springs are fairly easy to make, it's just trial and error to get those odd shaped springs just right. Good thing spring wire is cheap, I use piano wire. Small parts such as revolver hands, magazine releases, hammers, etc are also easy to make. It just takes time and is not economical, time or money, unless those parts are not available.

I believe most gunsmiths are more concerned about liability issues than anything else. I will not let an unsafe gun leave my shop in functional condition. A customer had an old Springfield break action shotgun. It was his grandfather's, the customer was up in years as well, so this thing was old. The stock had been destroyed in a fire and he wanted it restocked. I had to tell him the bad news, I can do the work but this gun is a wall hanger. Fires that burn the stock (this one was completely burned off) destroy the heat treat in the receiver. I was not willing to attempt a heat treat and temper because of the liability if it should fail one day. Then again, there are those others that only swap parts out, unwilling/unable to properly repair/fit the existing parts.

Not sure where I was going, but I am enjoying this thread.

[toallmy]

I generally try to fix my own firearm problems if at all possible ' parts changing ', but I live in a very rural area . The closest thing to a good gun smith locally is a retired machinist that lives near me . We shoot together and discuss loading quite often over a cup of coffee .

[Texas by God]

I'm not a gunsmith but I can do some gunsmith things.

[Hootmix]

As I have mentioned before ,, I made custom " cowboy " boots and repaired saddles. "I-did-not -do it - for the money " ,, YES I got paid for my work,, but it was never about the money!!!! Gunsmith's get paid for their " KNOWLEDGE " of how to " FIX " a problem,, it's done from the heart ,, I trying to learn how to fix my own guns,( levers & SA pistols ),, by listening and reading from the " been there done that " SMITH"S .

My 2 cents,, coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.

[samari46]

I have know 3 gunsmiths that were worthy of the name. one could do a stock from a blank or pre fit, thread and chamber any barrel and his passion was single shots. He was that good. the second does all rifle and pistol work and specializes in building 50BMG rifles. The third loved lever actions, once built a 458x2" on a 94 winchester as proof of concept. He basically set up Wolfgang Droge's assembly line with all the various machines to make sharps rifles. One is retired, one has gone to the great range in the sky and the third is as busy as ever. That is the one who corrected some factory problems on a marlin 22 I own. That is gunsmithing. Frank

[John Taylor]

Many years ago I worked with a gunsmith that designed and built 50 BMG single shot rifles. I did some of the machine work in my shop and he did the finish work.

[Tripplebeards]

This is a disposable society, we throw away people, firearms are no different.

I have three tables at the shop, the 'Rush Order, increased price', the 'Paying Full Price' & the 'Discount', but when I get around to it'.

I have to tell people all the time it will take 30 to 60 days, by the time you get done screwing around with parts suppliers (about 1/3 of the time it's no joy) and then making what ever part they need it's a PITA...

Then my 'Competition', guys installing sights that don't have proper taps, using hand drill and don't even have a tapping table...
I'm supposed to fix what they screwed up, and do it IMMEDIATELY, and do it for free, because the customer is POed at the first guy!

Here is a hint, when the 'Gunsmith' drills all the way through the barrel and has a screw sticking into the chamber, there isn't much I can do for you!
It won't chamber a round, and you shouldn't ever try to chamber a round since the chamber is compromised...
That's not what they want to hear, and I get called every name in the book.

I refitted loose barrels on an old double shotgun, made a fore end spring from scratch, tightened up the barrel on the pivot pin, (great old double or I would have told the guy to scrap it),
And the customer blew a fuse when I asked $200 for two solid days of work on his family heirloom... I was seriously throwing him a break since he was saving a great old double.
He says the guy 'Down the street' only wanted $35 (that guy pushes boards through a saw for his day job).

Another one was the guy that wanted a 20 MOA mount on his bolt rifle action, but the holes in the receiver were too small for the screws that came with the mount...
So he takes it to the 'Gunsmith' which breaks a tap off in the hole, and captures the BOLT!
The idiot never took the bolt out and bottomed the tap against the bolt, then apparently tried to DRILL A TAP OUT carving up the receiver.

I get a rifle that's gouged up, the bolt is pinned in the receiver with a hardened tap end, and the guy wants it back, ready to run that afternoon!

I felt like telling him to shove it up the butt of the guy that screwed it up,
But what I did was park his butt on a stool, made him WATCH me set up for EDM and burn out the tap,
Then PROPERLY set the receiver up on vertical axis and re-drill the hole, drill/tap the rest of the holes, fit the screws so they didn't pin or gouge the bolt, etc.
I also explained what each piece of equipment cost, how much it takes to operate the shop on a daily basis...
He was mad as a hornet at first, but when it came time to pay up, no arguments.
He's been back a few times and he's always polite (brings friends/work from time to time)...

------

I like it when the old timers sit around and BS, have coffee, etc.
I catch **** about them 'Loitering', but they have several lifetimes of experience and have great ideas & stories.
One of them had 40 years of experience in a fine furniture factory and can fix/repair/refinish ANY stock damage, an absloute master at his craft, and he can find wood to match ANY stock that comes through the door, knows every logger & saw mill in 500 miles...
I suck at stocks/wood, so he's a real treasure, and he knows M1 Garands like no one I've ever met.

Another guy was a factory 'Maintinance' man for about a half century, and can forge/heat treat ANY spring.
I've learned more about forging & heat treating on the fly from him that any class I ever took.
Makes the BEST hand forged knives you have ever seen...

------

The problem I see is there isn't an apprentice program anymore, people do 'Schools', some over the internet or by mail, and that's just NOT the hands on experience they need...
With an apprentice the journeyman will show/tell the apprentice about 40 different issues about like the one they are working on, cover all the vairables, safety procedures, and you can't get the smell, feel the heat, know what the resistance is over the internet or from a book...

And let's not forget the 'YouTube' generation, learning from someone that's got no education and is screwing up in the first place! When the conversation starts with 'I saw this guy on YouTube do this...' I'm usually out right there... It's not like someone with a proper education & 30 years experience is going to kill his business by posting his secrets on YouTube (even if he knew how, they won't exactly be the social media generation!).

--------

I'm SURE I'm missing out on easy money, but my rule is NO PLASTIC GUNS.
When some neck beard, man bun, YouTube 'Operator' brings in the 'Latest-Greatest' fad gun and wants something he saw on YouTube or read about in some 'Tactical' magazine, I just smile and say 'No'.

Wearing 'Tacti-Cool' cloths and buying the 'Latest' plastic gun doesn't make you an 'Operator' (16 years in the Marines, I know a dangerous man when I see one),
And I already know when the latest gadget or modification doesn't make him a better shooter, he's going to throw a tantrum and blame me for his inability to hit anything...

The second reason is, if the factory couldn't design a firearm that cycles or hits anything, what makes you believe I can magically wave a torque wrench over it and it never fails or misses again?
So much of the plastic **** won't function, and with the super short barrels/sight radius and sloppy slides/barrel lockup it's never going to be accurate, nothing I can do about that...
You paid $400 for melted Legos, face facts!

OK, rant over...
Resume normal operations!

Lol, you sound just like my buddy who has his own shop. Vents to me every day on how people like myself do it the wrong way and he has to fix it...on the spot. so I can tell he feels your pain and your not the only one .lol

I think he gets more postal than a postal worker at times. Most of those people want to sit there and talk to him the whole day and BS with him how they are the greatest shot in the world or how they shot a 300" buck as well and then they wonder why it didn't get done. He knows it's part of the job and building customer relations and report but some days he just can only listen to so much as anyone else would. It's almost like a coffe shop. He has regulars who come in just about every day and talk his ear off non stop all day long. He got smart, hooked up an answering machine and decided to only answer the phone three days a week...every other day and locks his door so he can get his promised work completed without interruptions.

[country gent]

The phone calls can be a big problem when your trying to do a touchy or intricate job and set up. It breaks concentration and pulls you away from it. Coming back it takes awhile to get back to where you were and to get the "momentum" going again.

[samari46]

Talk about momentum at 72 I need all the momentum I can muster just to get out of bed in the morning. All kidding aside when I'm messing around on my lathe, don't even have the radio on in the garage. Except for the lights and depending on how hot it is (3' shop fan) no one would know I'm there. Frank

[DougGuy]

John Taylor "gets" it. He "tailored" (I know, LOL) his scope of work to take on jobs that are practical and profitable, and lets basic economics dictate which ones to take in and which ones will be a loss of time compared to jobs that generate billable hours.

I have done the same, I started doing cylinder and barrel throating, buying tooling strictly for this work, eventually moving up to a Sunnen Precision Automotive Hone to do cylinder throats with, again, specialized to pistol caliber bore sizes, about useless for most other things but it does cylnder throats like factory finish, sometimes better than factory finish.

To this end I have not pursued 'smithing work beyond what I offer in my signature and a few other services I offer in quotes given to customers. I used to do a lot more, I built 1911s, did metal checkering good enough for the cover of any of the rags, it paid okay but it usually takes more time than you can bill for so it's a loss many times. So I quit doing a lot of the work, and concentrate on cylinder and barrel throats where fitment is critical and I feel I do better quality work when there aren't other jobs on the bench to distract my thoughts. I don't give my phone number out b/c I don't like to get calls that just pull my attention away from everything I am doing, and most of the correspondence can be done thoroughly and efficiently through txt and email on forums and facebook. This is just me prioritizing work to suit the investment of time and tooling in the best way. Not out to get rich, this gives me something to do and it solves a critical issue for handloaders so they can improve their handloading, shooting and hunting experiences, and in some cases their safety.

I don't really consider myself a gunsmith, not in the walk in brick and mortar store where the gunsmith's room is crammed full of machine shop tooling and racks and racks of guns to be worked on. I would consider myself a gunsmith specializing in handgun cylinders and barrels.

We still afaik cannot do caliber conversions, or anything that would "enhance, or accurize" the gun beyond the factory configuration, or this is "manufacturing" and not gunsmithing according to the EO that Obozo issued 7-22-2016, and subject to a $2200.00/yr "fee" which was made retroactive so BATFE can go after you for something you did earlier that they deem is "manufacturing." Until Trump rescinds this EO, I can't do this work and it is simple gunsmithing, always has been, it's not "manufacturing" at all.

[John Taylor]

My "specialty" if that's what it's called is making old guns shoot again.I try to stay away from modern guns but a local shop brings in some of the stuff they can't handle. It's fun for me to work on pieces of history. Several years back I worked on a Japanese match lock that was probably 300 years old. Most of the guns I work on were designed in the late 1800s. Quit a few come in for liners to make them shoot again. Some are missing parts or have broken parts and I get to figure out how to make new parts. Two this last month came in with the barrels cut off so I get to add length to make them back to the length they were made in originally. This all started as a hobby and I found out I could make a living at it about 20 years ago when a partnership at a machine and welding shop fell apart.

[gunarea]

My Bachelor of Science in Civil Engineering degree was less effort and money than my Certification course and support system as a "Certified Gunsmith". Although to many, filing and sawing may seem as humorous rhetoric, the courses were also separated by materials being addressed. Never did any advertising. It was frightening how fast my work load became overwhelming. With few options to save myself, specialization was necessary to cut down work load. Next was to eliminate gun dealers from farming work to me. At the time, my father was a master tool and die maker and I quickly overloaded him as well. We will forego all the chest pounding about what I can and have done. With no embarrassment, I admit to having and utilizing books with pictures. Later to using both video cassettes as well as DVDs for resource of information too great to commit to memory. Keeping up with every new firearm produced along with the evolution of the industry makes it a constant challenge to learn and retain. In those years of trying to quit gunsmithing, I taught many procedures and operations to others. It was only after practically giving nearly all my tools and equipment away, could I truthfully turn work down because I literally was unable to preform the work. Gunsmith as a title, used to mean something. Seems that self designation is now accepted as accreditation. While my full retirement and subsequent transfer of held FFLs has cut down on requested services, I honestly believe someone will visit my grave with cash in hand. I do and do not miss it.

Roy

[Tripplebeards]

It's the big jobs that kill them just like in the auto service industry. A billable 2 hour brake job or fluid flushes that takes 35 minutes keeps the lights on but rebuilding a transmission or engine that has a billable 12 to 14 hours and has been sitting on the hoist for days waiting for special order, factory sourced, broken rusty parts that rounded off or broke during disassembly when you could be shuffling little profitable jobs though kills you and pees off the impatient customer. Learned to work matter than harder over the years. Some jobs get politely passed on and referred somewhere else. I can normally read into the situation in the first 30 seconds when the customer is explaining what's going on and smell a problem comming a mile away before it happens...and it's normally going to come from the customer and not the issue at hand. Your better off passing the on the big stuff and stick to the small, profitable, quick, in and out things things as long as the pocketbook permits. That days you get greedy and take in the big job a lot of time it comes back to bite you. Anything that needs to get sent out will bite you in the butt. Can't predict when it will get get done or when or if the postal service will bring it back.

[marlinman93]

Amazing. I've looked at some of the states people who've posted on this thread are located in, and wonder why they can't find a competent gunsmith, when I know of them in their state.
As for the OP and his Remington. I wonder why the concern about taking the rifle to a Remington approved or authorized gunsmith? There are plenty of great gunsmiths who could do the same job, and no reason they need to be Remington authorized. If I lived in Michigan I'd be at Johnson's Sporting Goods talking to Steve Durren about the rebarrel. Probably one of the finest gunsmiths in the country, and I doubt anyone has ever had a complaint with his work.
And to the person from Missouri with his local gunsmith not knowing what headspace was. I'd be calling up Lee Shaver and arranging to have him look at that gun. I doubt he'd be susrprised if you asked him about headspace.
There are still hundreds of competent gunsmiths around, doing great work. Many are like John Taylor, who are so good they don't advertise anymore, so finding them takes word of mouth. I have plenty of resources, but none that are a close drive. John Taylor is 3 hours away, and others I trust are getting my stuff mailed to them. But competent gunsmiths can be found if you try, and are willing to pay them a fair price for the quality work they do.
I don't need parts changers. I'll take care of that myself.

[HangFireW8]

As for the OP and his Remington. I wonder why the concern about taking the rifle to a Remington approved or authorized gunsmith?

I don't understand the OP's obsession with a large commercial company that won't do his personal bidding. He sure has started enough threads and used enough bandwidth in his frustration. He could have just asked for recommendations and have had work started by now.

I'm guessing 9-12 months we are not going to see a picture heavy custom gun build thread from the OP. I hope I'm wrong.