What is gunsmithing

[Nobade]

This thread hits close to home because this is my world. I build custom bolt guns. And it is a very strange place to be, when you look at the skills required compared to what things cost. But years ago we were everything to everybody. You bring in a gun project, we'd take it on. I can repair it, and make parts for pretty much anything. Developed a great reputation. But you know what? The shop was going broke and would have closed years ago if we hadn't made the decision to specialize. So we look at it and decide what to do that will make money. I can blueprint a Remington 700, fit a barrel to it, install a brake, pillar bed it in a day. Tomorrow I break it out of the bedding, clean that up, Cerakote it, assemble everything, and I have made $1000 in labor for a little less than two days. And people are lining up for these rifles, with the average wait time being nine months. Or I could carve a nice stock from a blank, cut out a barrel with an integral quarter rib sight and barrel band. Build a super nice rifle somebody would be proud to own. By the time it's done I might have 300 hours labor in it, that I could bill at maybe $3000. Or I could spend a day making a leaf spring for your old shotgun, and charge you $50. Either way I go broke fast. It's not that this stuff isn't possible to do, it's just that it would be stupid to do it.
My big love is nice muzzleloader rifles in the English style. My heros are Steve Zinn and Colin Stolzer, somehow those guys can build rifles like that and still survive, but I haven't figured out how to do that yet. So I'll be content to make what I enjoy in my free time and give the customers what they want and are willing to pay for in order to keep the rent paid and the lights on.

[toallmy]

I consider a good parts changer capable of doing most of the gun work the general public would ever need - should be appreciated also , they seem to be in short supply and underappreciated .

[huntnman]

I have a Turk Mauser that has been to two smiths. One charged IIRC $40 said was good to shoot, I asked about head space, he looked at me like I had two heads, despite that was what I had asked for, when I dropped it off. He told me I ran a brand new bore scope, took pictures. The second charged me nothing, said he could not get proper screws for stock. Told me "You have an expensive wall hanger". Still looking for a trust worthy smith.

[John Taylor]

Things started off as a hobby. I got the bug to rifle a barrel and made a few muzzle loaders with a home made hand pulled cut rifle. Then went though several different jobs and found myself without a job. Got the bug to build a better rifling machine and was playing with it when local logger ask if I could rebore his T/C 50 out to 54. I took it on just to get some more experience. Found out the rifle shot very good so I put an add in gun list that I would work on barrels. Got a call from a guy wanting to know if I could do an integral sight ramp and I said I would give it a try. He flooded me with work and I have been at it for over 20 years now. I quit advertising about 14 years ago. I like working on the old stuff and very seldom see an AR. I get more relines than anything ells and most of the old guns need some parts. Todays fun project was making a mag tube hanger for an old Colt lever action rifle. The barrel has a dovetail at the end that is cut with a curve. Luckily I had another one in the shop that I could copy.This Colt came in with the barrel cut in half so it got a piece welded on and machined octagon to match, then bored for a liner. Neat thing about it is the other Colt needed a part also so now I can use it as a guide to make another part. This is the first gun I have ever seen that has a dog leg in the middle of the firing pin to clear the locking lug. After years of working as a mechanic, machinist and welder I now get to work on things much lighter than logging equipment. I'm able to keep up with the bills but I'm not getting rich. Best part is I enjoy what I'm doing. Sold the bluing tanks because it just don't pay unless that's all you do. I can do wood but I can't make enough so I trade with a stock maker, he always has machine work that needs to be done.

[M-Tecs]

We have never had as many option for true custom builders as we have today. That is in large part why the factories offer so little in the way of custom builds. A hundred years ago all the manufactures would build you most anything you wanted. Today their style of low labor manufacturing requires high volume to be profitable.

Good example is the Remington 700 action. On sale your can purchase them for around $350.00. If you step up to a semi-custom high tolerance copy of a 700 you are looking at around $1,000.00. If you want a true one of built one at a time you are now in the $3,000.00 to $5,000.00 range.

Anything you want is readily available if you are willing to pay. Most people want and expect high end custom tolerances at Remington prices.

[crankycalico]

shilen wont do a barrel in 30-30 or 7x57 for a model 70 or 700

[M-Tecs]

shilen wont do a barrel in 30-30 or 7x57 for a model 70 or 700

Shilen doesn't list 30-30 as available chamberings. They do list the 7 x 57. Even if they don't lots of other barrel makers or gunsmith that do chambering will.

[John Taylor]

shilen wont do a barrel in 30-30 or 7x57 for a model 70 or 700

30-30 on a model 70 is fun, have done more than a few. The rear of the barrel is quite a bit different from other model 70s. The 22 Hornet is another one on the model 70 that take a little effort to make feed right.

[HangFireW8]

A gunsmith should be able to do gun smithing things with minimal issues.

I emailed Remington about chambering a rifle in a not available at this time caliber, and about installing iron sights on it. They have a dwindling number of repair centers. Its not good days for Remington, looking at the current list I have personally been in 2 that no longer appear on that list.

Anyway they have 2 authorized service centers in Michigan, but they feel only 1 is capable of removing a rifle barrel, or rechambering, or even installing iron sights.

Is this become the new standard of the day?

Back in the 90's I had a newish, second-hand Remington700 with a kink in the rifling about 6" from the muzzle. I called Remington and they wouldn't touch it, but they sent me the list of authorized repair centers. I called each of them within 100 miles and they either didn't rebarrel or were out of business. Later at the range a friend recommended a not so local gunsmith, who then did excellent work for me for the next decade. He was not on Remington's authorized list.

So to answer your question, there is nothing new about this situation. New gunshops eagerly get on Remington's authorized list, but their skills are limited to parts replacement. Good gunsmiths are found elsewhere. That has not changed.

[crankycalico]

The authorized service center doesn't even UNDERSTAND the concept of putting a new barrel on...

[uscra112]

I was about to offer up that a gunsmith ought to be able to make, harden and temper a spring, and then I see this about "gunsmiths" that can't (or won't) even install and chamber a new barrel! I've done both in my hobby shop, but I certainly haven't considered myself a real gunsmith. Until now.

[Nobade]

I was about to offer up that a gunsmith ought to be able to make, harden and temper a spring, and then I see this about "gunsmiths" that can't (or won't) even install and chamber a new barrel! I've done both in my hobby shop, but I certainly haven't considered myself a real gunsmith. Until now.

After seeing some of what you've done over the years I'd say you're more skilled than 95 percent of the people who call themselves gunsmiths.

[John 242]

The authorized service center doesn't even UNDERSTAND the concept of putting a new barrel on...

Service centers are lower level repair shops. They handle factor repair work and they are usually NOT CUSTOM GUN SHOPS. They are basically factory armorers.

I personally know at least two GUNSMITHS at the Remington Custom Shop in Sturgis, SD and they know how to install/chamber a barrel, thread a barrel, blueprint a receiver, etc, etc. I don't know what services they offer and whether or not they will work on your gun, but they are certainly capable of it. Call the custom shop at (605) 347-4686 and find out.

https://www.remington.com/custom-shop

[John 242]

shilen wont do a barrel in 30-30 or 7x57 for a model 70 or 700

Shilen will sell you a pre-threaded, pre-contoured, short chambered barrel in 7x57 for a Remington 700 or Post 64 Model 70. Nearly any fairly competent gunsmith could finish headspace the barrel for you, or you can do it yourself.

Shilen will sell you a pre-contoured .308 groove diameter barrel in virtually any twist rate you'd like. It'll need to be threaded and chambered, but that isn't rocket science and most gunsmiths with a lathe can handle threading and chambering a barrel.
The headache would be in fixing whatever feeding problems the gun would have. What about extraction? What about bolt face diameter? What about .... all the other stuff I'm not considering? Having never done one, I would hesitate to take on this job. I guess that makes me "not a real gunsmith" in the eyes of many of you pros on here, but I don't have time to screw around with projects that occupy my time with RESEARCH and trial and error feed work, unless I can charge for it. But even then, there's plenty of other more profitable jobs that I am fully capable of doing and getting done, so why bother?

(Edit: The point I'm trying to make is that the 7x57 is easy peasy, but the .30-30 job might take some expertise and that kind of job isn't run of the mill or necessarily cheap.)

[John 242]

After seeing some of what you've done over the years I'd say you're more skilled than 95 percent of the people who call themselves gunsmiths.

You could go to any other trade oriented forum and substitute the word "gunsmiths" for welder, plumber, electrician, knife maker or mechanic and you're statement would remain true of many of the hobbyists.

[Nobade]

Quite true.

[crankycalico]

Service centers are lower level repair shops. They handle factor repair work and they are usually NOT CUSTOM GUN SHOPS. They are basically factory armorers.

I personally know at least two GUNSMITHS at the Remington Custom Shop in Sturgis, SD and they know how to install/chamber a barrel, thread a barrel, blueprint a receiver, etc, etc. I don't know what services they offer and whether or not they will work on your gun, but they are certainly capable of it. Call the custom shop at (605) 347-4686 and find out.

https://www.remington.com/custom-shop

They only seem to do the offerings shown on the website, and most of which I wasn't interested in.

[koger]

NoBade you are right on target about the $$ side of gunsmithing. I have been at it professionally, full time and part time last few years, for over 35 years. I have built over 100 custom rifles, most Mauser sporters and Savages, which included truing the actions, rebarreling, bending bolts, drilling and tapping for scopes/sights, bedding into the stock the customer chose, and going thru the trigger or installing an aftermarket one. I have blued and parkerized hundreds of firearms, and lost count of how many rifles I have glass bedded/trigger jobs on. I ran a successful shop for several years part time, then went full time. I worked 6 days a week, 12-14 hours a often, never without work. The services I mentioned above also included general gunsmithing, accurizing ML's, installing sight, scopes, bore sighting and zeroing. The problem with these neck of the woods, folks don't want to pay normal wages for quality work, so I had the opportunity to sell the gunshop/archery part of the business, to a young man who had inherited a goodly sum of money, and he has been pretty successful, with slow times and boom times. I only do limited work now, but seem to stay covered up by my best old customers who always paid the prices quoted, and never grumble. I did not venture into the endless shotgun work to be done, because the demand here was so limited, the reaming for chokes, threading the barrels, sleeves etc. There was just some stuff I did not want to do, or it was not commercially feasible, and I had a few guys ask me what kind of a gunsmith are you if you don't do------------- service? My answer was a very busy one, that was not starving to death.

[John Taylor]

A story from a fellow gunsmith when he was first starting out. He was learning form an old gunsmith and was in his shop when a young man came in with a rifle. The young man said he needed his rifle by the end of the week because he was going hunting on the weekend. The old gunsmith was looking over the rifle and the young man mentioned again that he needed the rifle before the weekend. This went on for a while with the young man saying several times that he needed the rifle before the weekend. The old gunsmith finally said " you better take it with you now to insure you have it before the weekend".

[uscra112]

That's a milder version of the famous Harry Pope story.