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Thread: .45-70 patch size

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobade View Post
    In theory. But in practice the paper stretches enough for it to even out or be a bit long.
    I'm pretty acquainted with practice. For that reason, I much prefer empirical measures in this instance. One can, and most do, agonize about such things as this that will never put another point on their scores.

  2. #22
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrentD View Post
    I'm pretty acquainted with practice. For that reason, I much prefer empirical measures in this instance. One can, and most do, agonize about such things as this that will never put another point on their scores.
    Quite correct. Experience is usually more useful than theory if you can get it.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobade View Post
    Quite correct. Experience is usually more useful than theory if you can get it.
    Not necessarily, but in this instance, perhaps. If you are going to use Pi to 4 digits, might as well get the rest of the theory right (because, properly done the theory is right). Otherwise carrying Pi to the 4th decimal is pretty meaningless.

  4. #24
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrentD View Post
    Not necessarily, but in this instance, perhaps. If you are going to use Pi to 4 digits, might as well get the rest of the theory right (because, properly done the theory is right). Otherwise carrying Pi to the 4th decimal is pretty meaningless.
    Rules for precision,
    Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe.

  5. #25
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    A lot like a 1/ 16" .060 -1 / 32" .030 gap between the ends. When the second wrap lays over the first there is a small radius their and this small gaps makes for a smoother wrap.

  6. #26
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Another way is to dry wrap with a piece of the paper you're going to use, snip through it on the exposed edge of the paper cylinder, unroll it and establish the distance between the snips. Two snips will be too long so reduce a millimeter or so and try a wet wrap with the paper cut to whatever parallelogram you're gonna use. Observe the gap or overlap. Adjust the length while muttering the mantra of St. Galena, "Measure once, cuss twice."

  7. #27
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    Good Cheer,

    I cut a strip and wrap 2 1/2 wraps cut a nick thru in both full wraps. lay out the tapered ends from the nicks -.032. I then rubber cement this to the material Im cutting the template from and cut and file it to size. The test patch becomes template for the template and makes it easy to cut and form

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by country gent View Post
    Good Cheer,

    I cut a strip and wrap 2 1/2 wraps cut a nick thru in both full wraps. lay out the tapered ends from the nicks -.032. I then rubber cement this to the material Im cutting the template from and cut and file it to size. The test patch becomes template for the template and makes it easy to cut and form
    This is the best way. And if you cut the template a little long or a little short you can always file it a little more to fix.

  9. #29
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    i find it best to cut the paper template to the exact size, then file the brass template in stages of sorts, to produce proper patches.

    if the brass template is a little too short, time to start all over.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfd View Post
    .

    if the brass template is a little too short, time to start all over.
    Not necessarily. You probably can lengthen the template by filing it, if you think about it.

  11. #31
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    Or maybe tapping on it to stretch the brass some to add length.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrentD View Post
    Not necessarily. You probably can lengthen the template by filing it, if you think about it.
    depends on what "short" is. easier to it it with a hammer, i'd think. but i'd rather get it right from the get-go rather than to fudge it later.

  13. #33
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    No! It will make it longer but not nicely.

  14. #34
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    Here is another way I use to cut patches. Don't need to make up a template for
    every different size patch I need. Once I determine width and length of patch, I
    make up 4 layer strips of the paper at the appropriate width, then mark off to length I need
    and cut them on the paper cutter at a 30 degree angle as seen below.
    beltfed/arnie
    Click image for larger version. 

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  15. #35
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    I do the same with an adjustable fence and rails. My paper cutter is a rolling cutter . I start by cutting 10 strip wide "squares". these have 1 edge stick glued together. I then cut strips and end glue them in bundles of 5. Tape down the 45* rail, I use double faced tape for this. Then cut the first angle and feed thru to the fence and cut the patches. I can cut a bunch of patches in a setting. The rolling cutters have a cam type clamp that locks the paper while cutting. I set it n my lap and cut while watching a good movie.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobade View Post
    This.
    PP with black powder in leverguns is pretty much a no-go unless you duplex load it. And by the time you seat the bullet deep enough to fit in the action you've lost any advantage PP has. Not to say don't do it, but you'll likely not be very impressed.

    Why does deep seating ruin the benefit of paper patch? VS deep seating grease grooves bullets?

  17. #37
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J. Spangler View Post
    Why does deep seating ruin the benefit of paper patch? VS deep seating grease grooves bullets?
    Wow, that was two years ago. I think what I was trying to say then is when you paper patch for single shots, the case is full of powder and the bullet is riding the lands, already lined up. You get more power due to the bigger charge and better accuracy due to no damage of the bullet going through the throat. But your ammo is really long and fragile, won't work through a lever action. If you load a big, say 500 grain bullet, so it will fit in the action there's not much room for powder in the case and the performance will be somewhat less than impressive. At that point you may as well use grease groove bullets and save yourself the work. At least that's what I think I was trying to say...

  18. #38
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    Got it. So it’s more about deep seating running it that shooting greasers.
    A nice 500 grain greaser seated deep enough to cycle in say a Marlin 1895 is a waster of time too.

    I wish my Pedersoli Sharps had the throat for paper patch. Then again I shoot smokeless.
    I guess the question is, if I seat the bullet as long as I can so that it’s into the throat does it matter if it has a grease groove short throat vs a paper patch style throat? If I’m not using BP then I don’t really run into powder capacity issues. Will I still have the same accuracy as long as its jammed into the rifling either style throat?

    I finally picked up some 5744 so I’m looking to make some test loads. Hope I’m not wasting my time with PP in that rifle.

    Thanks!

  19. #39
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    Almost all my best paper patched shooters have no throat the leade comes right off the case mouth. I think the extra bore support helps as long as the bullet is swelling to the throat and back down. Shooting bore riding paper patched bullets there isnt much need for a throat

  20. #40
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    If you're shooting PP with smokeless, the lack of throat in a 45-70 isn't really a problem but your techniques and bullets will be completely different than if you were shooting black powder. BTW if you haven't noticed yet, 45 Colt bullets are the perfect size to patch up and shoot in a 45-70 with smokeless. And a 250gr. bullet can be motivated to travel at quite a high speed with enough medium fast rifle powder behind it, makes a wicked varmint gun that way.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check