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Thread: .45-70 patch size

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master


    GregLaROCHE's Avatar
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    .45-70 patch size

    I’m getting ready to load and shoot my first PP with BP. I’ll be shooting it in a Marlin lever gun using greese cookies and NOT swabing the bore after each shot. When done, I plan to remove the lever and bolt to swab it out to clean it.

    I have a really nice old cotton bed sheet that I plan to cut for patches. Since the size is up to me, I was wondering what would be the best size to make them.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    bed sheet?

    They don't call them "paper patches" because they use bed sheets. Stick with paper.
    Last edited by BrentD; 12-27-2018 at 10:18 AM.

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    greg, you mixing up muzzleloaders and bpcr PPB?

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    Boolit Master
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    I read it as he was using the bed sheet for swabbing. Will have to cut and try. Depends on jag size.
    The only amendment the Democrats support is the 5th.

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I think he wants to make cleaning patches. Size of the patches will depend on you jags size and style, along with the thickness of the material. most of my wrap jags for 45 caliber are a good snug fit with a 3" flannel cleaning patch. your bed sheet may be thinner requiring a longer patch. Cut a strip as wide as the jag is long. wrap to a snug fit and measure its length. A few soft wiping cloths 10"-12" square are very handy also, for wiping cleaning insides of actions and outside of firearms. These like a patch can be used with solvent oils or dry. I have one with oil that's stored in a zip lock bag and used for years to wipe down outsides of firearms. I prefer the flannel patches for cleaning the knap on them catches and holds solvent better and also seems to move fouling better.

    Especially for your marlin an Otis cleaning system (pull through cable) is very desirable since you can start with it from the action and pull fouling to the muzzle and out. once fouling is gone the the normal rod can be used.

  6. #6
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    Is the Otis system the same as what is called a bore snake?

  7. #7
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    greg, make PPB shooting simple and easy at least from the get-go. you wanna wipe between shots for bp fouling control. this means running a moist patch and then a drying patch after every firing. most will use a delrin rod for this process and the fit of the patched jag makes for a relatively easy push down the tube and out the muzzle.

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    This.
    PP with black powder in leverguns is pretty much a no-go unless you duplex load it. And by the time you seat the bullet deep enough to fit in the action you've lost any advantage PP has. Not to say don't do it, but you'll likely not be very impressed.

  9. #9
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    I have considered a duplex round. I was worried at first about BP in a lever gun, but then got a lot of people saying they did it and it was no big deal. I’m not planning to cycle the rounds. I’ll load them one at a time. I’m using this gun to test as much as I can, before I spend the money on a new gun more appropriate.

    These delrin cleaning rods, are they flexible, so I can get into the barrel from the chamber end, without removing the lever and bolt after each shot?

  10. #10
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    The Otis is similar to a bore snake but in a way more suited to BP. It is a cable with a screw on t handle for pulling and the other end is set up with 8-32 threads for brush jag and other accessories. Unlike the bore snakes that are brush and wiper as part of the unit, the Otis patches and brushes ( when worn out) are disposable consumables. A bore snake will work but it will continue to spread fouling in the bore with each pull thru. I think brushes last longer on the Otis system than a rod since the bristles are never reversed in travel.

  11. #11
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    I just researched Otis cleaning kits and think one would be perfect for what I am looking to do. That way I can easily clean after each shot if I need to.

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    bpcr for single shot guns is a no-brainer for me, particularly of the PPB kind, but bp cartridges for lever guns seems like way too much of a hassle. as to duplex loading, that also makes no sense to me - why even bother, just load smokeless and be done with it. in any event, good luck greg!

  13. #13
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    If you select the proper bullet design you can lever through as many rounds you want without a feeding issue. I have several Marlins and they all shoot black powder without any feeding problems till the barrel gets so hot I smell the wood. No need to duplex, just pick the right bullet and a good lube.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lead pot View Post
    If you select the proper bullet design you can lever through as many rounds you want without a feeding issue. I have several Marlins and they all shoot black powder without any feeding problems till the barrel gets so hot I smell the wood. No need to duplex, just pick the right bullet and a good lube.
    Do you use a greese cookie? If so what is it made of and how thick?
    Thanks

  15. #15
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Attachment 232827

    In my Marlins I don't shoot a PP too often because the chances of snagging the patch and rolling it back causing problems. I use greasers for the lever rifles. For the GG no lube wad is needed when you hv a good bullet. The bullet must have multiple lube grooves or a wide grooves. The depth of the grooves are best shallow about .020" because the lube below that point will never get used.

    The bullet above was a design Pope used for a lot of calibers for the Ideal moulds and you will never find a better performing bullet for a lever rifle that will let you shoot as many as you want without feeding problems.
    If you look at the way the ogive is designed, it will never fail to chamber when you load it properly in the case and it carries lube that bare lead makes very little contact with the lands and they seal the bore very good holding gas back preventing lead smears from gas cuts when they are case using a soft alloy.
    That bullet is a copy of the 457-121 I had custom made for the proper size for the Marlin and the 73 trapdoor because the Lyman moulds have a tendency to make the diameter to small for my liking. I also use this ogive design for the .444 Marlin.

    Look at this old Ideal hand book page and look at the way the ogives taper down to the front driving band.http://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/...p?item_id=1444 most of those bullets are designed to chamber in a fouled chamber from repeated shots fired in lever rifles or falling blocks.

    Kurt

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
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    I don't know if any of this will help but I'll post what little I know about PPB in leverguns and also BP in leverguns.

    First I have never combined the three, black powder, paper patch bullet and leverguns, but I have used both ppb and bp in leverguns.

    With BP I have always used grease groove bullets in my levergun. The rifle is a Uberti Henry in .44 WCF. I did not use a lube cookie, but I was able to shoot multiple shots without cleaning and with very good accuracy out to 300 yards. Beyond 300 the little 200 grain bullets didn't hold up well. The bullets I used were purchased and of an old Lyman designed specifically for the .44 WCF. I have no idea what lube was on those bullets but it was made for black powder and was very good. Not wanting to be killed I did not press the bullet maker on the subject after asking him once.

    When I did feel a need to wipe the bore, about every 15 to 20 shots, I would just put a fired case in the chamber with the action closed, then with a damp patch I would use a snug fitting jag on the end of my cleaning rod with a bore guide at the muzzle to push the patch and fouling into the empty case in the chamber. I would remove the rod, eject the case and I was ready for more shooting. The dirty case would just be cleaned with the others at the end of the day. With the snug fitting fired case in the chamber no fouling would get into the chamber. It was quick and effective. The patch was dampened with spit, which I learned cleans bp fouling very well.

    All of that cleaning methodI learned from years of shooting a flintlock while moving fast and traveling light. I was a bit younger then and I don't move so fast these days.

    Paper patch in leverguns is a tricky thing. I only ever used smokeless powders. I had a custom made mold that was straight sided and groove diameter plus .002". It resembled a semi-wadcutter and I patched to the end of the groove diameter portion and seated it so only about .030" of the patch was showing. Accuracy was very good from my Marlin 1895 in .45-70 with micro-groove rifling.

    Then one day I had something go wrong with a patch, probably damage as it was cycled from the tube. That resulted in the worst leading I have ever seen in a rifle. I've seen some really bad leading in pistols and revolvers and this was like that. I had fired 2 more shots after the bad patch and those three bullets leaded things up really bad. It took hours to clean it out.

    After that day I decided that grease groove were designed for leverguns and God had made paper patch bullets for the single shots. I never tried to mix the two again. I am a happy man as a result of that decision.

    I do believe Brent has combined the two successfully and knows how that is done. I just consider it a lesson learned.

    Good luck!
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

    Black powder paper patching is a journey, enjoy the ride!

  17. #17
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    If you use one of those Delrin 3/8” cleaning rods like Arizona Sharpshooter’s used to sell, cutting your bedsheets in 1-1/2”x1-1/2” squares ought to get you close.

    The 3/8” Delrin rod would bend enough to be usable on a Peabody or Martini, but doesn’t work on a Trapdoor, so would be impossible through the side port of a Marlin lever gun. However, a 5/16” Delrin rod ought to work on a Trapdoor, and might work on the Marlin without taking the bolt out. If not, a 3/16” rod might work or a 1/4”, although the last might be too flexible to push well. You would, of course, need to cut the patches larger and/or fold them over to make up windage.

    I use chopped-up flannel bedsheets in smaller calibers, but for .44 and .45, nothing beats old white cotton gym socks. The same absorbency that works so well on feet works equally well on black powder fouling/grease cookie goo.

  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy Gobeyond's Avatar
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    The length of a paper patch is diameter of bullet times 3.1416 times two for double the circumference of the bullet.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gobeyond View Post
    The length of a paper patch is diameter of bullet times 3.1416 times two for double the circumference of the bullet.
    Almost. You forget the diameter for the second lap around the bullet is greater than for the first lap. This is one case where it is easier to estimate empirically, but you could use Length = (diameter of bullet x Pi) + ((diameter of the bullet +( 2 x thickness of the patch)) x Pi)

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrentD View Post
    Almost. You forget the diameter for the second lap around the bullet is greater than for the first lap. This is one case where it is easier to estimate empirically, but you could use Length = (diameter of bullet x Pi) + ((diameter of the bullet +( 2 x thickness of the patch)) x Pi)
    In theory. But in practice the paper stretches enough for it to even out or be a bit long.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check